Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
VanemadUuemad
Nice and sincere story-thanks for the memories. These kinds of precious memories are of immediate and direct consequence to how you feel, but you must compliment this-for your own and your daughter's sake-by making a few occasional trips to Estonia. She will get a different and more realistic feel behind what it means to be Estonian. Living with past memories may be fine for you; since you had your own childhood and friends to go with it; but your daughter will get a very slant picture of Estonian culture if she doesn't see it being lived out by hoards of people on the streets in everyday living patterns. I'm sorry if it hurts, but the only place left now for all that is right here in Estonia. The left is turning off-colour by the day....
Liisa claims that she is "keeping the Estonian heritage going" and yet she also states that her daughter "speaks 10 words of Estonian" Liisa, are you for real? Häbi!
Dear Peter,
You must not have read the entire article. If you had, you would see where I live and how. Think of your own situation before you start "kritiseerima". You should be ashamed, I am proud of who I am!
You must not have read the entire article. If you had, you would see where I live and how. Think of your own situation before you start "kritiseerima". You should be ashamed, I am proud of who I am!
To Liisa: I did read the entire article, in fact I read some parts many times before making my comment. Where you live is not an excuse for not bothering to teach your daughter to speak Estonian. There are Estonians living in many countries who have passed on our language to their children and not cut them off from their heritage.
I am sorry if I sound too critical but you claim to be proud of your heritage and yet you live in a country where you will not be %@!#$& by passing on your language and yet for some reason have refused to do so.
I am sorry if I sound too critical but you claim to be proud of your heritage and yet you live in a country where you will not be %@!#$& by passing on your language and yet for some reason have refused to do so.
Liisa hasn't taught her daughter to speak Estonian, probably, for the same reason that Peter doesn't address us in Estonian -- competence is limited.
Even if it weren't so, I wonder why Peter thinks that someone else's child, in a place like Montana, should learn the language of his choice even though it can't be put to use? Could it be that he takes himself too seriously?
Even if it weren't so, I wonder why Peter thinks that someone else's child, in a place like Montana, should learn the language of his choice even though it can't be put to use? Could it be that he takes himself too seriously?
Peter. I don't know Liisa but let me tell you there are more ways to keep the culture going, other than knowing the language. It is people like you that drive others away. Shame on you. By the way Peter is not an eesti nimi ! So put that in your pipe and smoke it. As for Maxim , he talks of estonian culture on the streets of Estonia. I was there last summer. I heard and saw more Russians than I cared for. I assume that is your Estonian culture. Thanks Maxim but no thanks. I would recommend visiting relatives but not walk the streets like you recommend. By the way Maxim I missed your US bashing . Your English is very poor, could you explain what you mean "...The left is turning off-colour by the day.... " ?
...damn..I told that Russian tour guide that when she's busy soaking in the wonders of Vanalinn...and kicking herself for not having had the fortune to be born into our gene pool..to just keep a lid on her enthusiasm..and what do you know..it was more than enough for poor old Peep to have to air his feelings in public about it all. Of course Peep is welcome to see Estonia any which way he chooses, even if he thinks it's better to stay cooped up between four walls.
What qualifies you to scold anyone from our community for any reason? What have you achieved that makes you an example to us all? And what, precisely, are you demanding of us and, in particular, those of us who live in isolation from other Estonian-speakers?
Häbi!
Häbi!
I find the concept of measuring the value of a language by “how much it can be put to use” to be quite interesting. What does useful mean: that it can help you make money, find a life-partner or ensure good karma? Obviously that’s one take on it, but it seems to me that most people learn a language because they are genuinely interested in the culture and realise that the only way to get true insight into the people, humour, attitudes and culture is by interacting via the common and unique means of communication of that particular group of people.
Impossible? – No. Difficult? – It can be, but if it’s important enough to you, it’s do-able. Every summer intensive Estonian courses are offered at Tartu University for instance. Obviously the best way to learn is through immersion and in this age of the internet and live global radio, immersion can be in your living room. It’s a start. Naturally it’s hard to keep a language alive in another country with such a dominant language and culture as in the US and Canada, but isn’t that another just reason to try?
There are a lot of Estos everywhere – it would be great if we would try to speak to one another in Estonian every time we get together, it’s a shame that most people just give up because they’re embarrassed or it’s uncomfortable. It’s an opportunity wasted, one of the few for such “live connections” on another continent.
Partners of Estonians have learned the language; non-Estonians who have come to live in Eesti have learned it to an absolutely amazing degree. It’s all about how much you want to learn.
Unfortunately I think we are dealing with a North-American attitude here > the perception that learning a language is a chore. I mean everyone speaks English anyway, right? So why bother?... Within the patchwork of European cultures this is generally seen differently and getting even a slight grasp of a new language is not a big deal but an interesting and exciting challenge.
A friend of mine is an amazing example of this. He just finished a 4-year stint in Eesti as the German cultural attaché. He learned Estonian during his first year here and speaks it better than a lot of Estonians born abroad. It’s just amazing and a joy to listen to him. I usually just start speaking to him in Estonian, without thinking about it. It’s so natural, as if he was Estonian and then I’m slightly taken aback when I realise that his English is actually better and perhaps might not be as taxing on his brain. But he likes speaking it!… Granted, he obviously has an affinity for languages, but he’s now posted in Berlin and although plans on keeping in touch with members of the Estonian diplomatic core in Berlin and will surely visit Estonia as much as possible, how “useful” will Estonian really be to him now?... What a shame, eh? All that time wasted. So many good friends and insights and memories, an appreciation gained for what is behind the words and expressions > a way of seeing and interpreting things from a different point of view and for what?.....
Learning and helping someone else learn a language is not about usefulness and logic. It’s about keen interest and love and respect for a culture, heritage and people. The one thing it should not be is chore or a duty. So forget whatever pressure you might have felt as a kid --- Estonia awaits. It’s teeming with enthusiasts and tourists and learning its language can be FUN.
This has not been a paid service announcement. All that negativity is just a drag.
Impossible? – No. Difficult? – It can be, but if it’s important enough to you, it’s do-able. Every summer intensive Estonian courses are offered at Tartu University for instance. Obviously the best way to learn is through immersion and in this age of the internet and live global radio, immersion can be in your living room. It’s a start. Naturally it’s hard to keep a language alive in another country with such a dominant language and culture as in the US and Canada, but isn’t that another just reason to try?
There are a lot of Estos everywhere – it would be great if we would try to speak to one another in Estonian every time we get together, it’s a shame that most people just give up because they’re embarrassed or it’s uncomfortable. It’s an opportunity wasted, one of the few for such “live connections” on another continent.
Partners of Estonians have learned the language; non-Estonians who have come to live in Eesti have learned it to an absolutely amazing degree. It’s all about how much you want to learn.
Unfortunately I think we are dealing with a North-American attitude here > the perception that learning a language is a chore. I mean everyone speaks English anyway, right? So why bother?... Within the patchwork of European cultures this is generally seen differently and getting even a slight grasp of a new language is not a big deal but an interesting and exciting challenge.
A friend of mine is an amazing example of this. He just finished a 4-year stint in Eesti as the German cultural attaché. He learned Estonian during his first year here and speaks it better than a lot of Estonians born abroad. It’s just amazing and a joy to listen to him. I usually just start speaking to him in Estonian, without thinking about it. It’s so natural, as if he was Estonian and then I’m slightly taken aback when I realise that his English is actually better and perhaps might not be as taxing on his brain. But he likes speaking it!… Granted, he obviously has an affinity for languages, but he’s now posted in Berlin and although plans on keeping in touch with members of the Estonian diplomatic core in Berlin and will surely visit Estonia as much as possible, how “useful” will Estonian really be to him now?... What a shame, eh? All that time wasted. So many good friends and insights and memories, an appreciation gained for what is behind the words and expressions > a way of seeing and interpreting things from a different point of view and for what?.....
Learning and helping someone else learn a language is not about usefulness and logic. It’s about keen interest and love and respect for a culture, heritage and people. The one thing it should not be is chore or a duty. So forget whatever pressure you might have felt as a kid --- Estonia awaits. It’s teeming with enthusiasts and tourists and learning its language can be FUN.
This has not been a paid service announcement. All that negativity is just a drag.
You're comments can't be disputed. Nonetheless, you've overlooked the fact that many in the Estonian communities abroad aren't deeply interested in the comtemporary culture of Estonia and would never contemplate emigrating there. They visit, find it interesting, but alien. Their primary alegience is to community to which they were born and in which they're comfortable. They wish to stay here and to preserve it as best they can. They are discomforted and hostile to the many Liisas among us who haven't made a commitment to this sub-culture.
Sorry, Peter, but Liisa doesn't owe you anything. She's entitled to shape her own life as she sees fit,
Sorry, Peter, but Liisa doesn't owe you anything. She's entitled to shape her own life as she sees fit,
This is a very interesting but true analysis of what's going down in most Estonian communities abroad. The trouble with Estonian culture is that it needs individualt with pride, tenacity and phenomenal drive to keep the old culture kicking abroad. However, the highly nuanced and very perceptive truth as indicated by this last comment shows that really the opposite is what's going down in your neck of the woods. And for anyone living abroad with even the slightest interest in the old roots, it all amounts to a very sad but truly sweet kick up the rear end for "meie rahvas"!!!
I do agree that we are a sub-culture and in my opinion a very valuable one. When you look at all the young people who are revolting against the Anglo monoculture with their piercings, hairstyles, etc. you can see that not everyone wants to be the same and in my opinion English Canadian/American culture has nothing to offer but this sameness, much like the Soviet "culture" that was promoted for so many years by the equally cultureless Soviet Union.
I do not think that Liisa owes me anything but she does owe a lot to her ancestors who, like Liisa, lived in an environment where other languages (Russian and German) were the languages of education and government but unlike Liisa they chose to keep their culture and language alive and pass it on to their children.
I do not think that Liisa owes me anything but she does owe a lot to her ancestors who, like Liisa, lived in an environment where other languages (Russian and German) were the languages of education and government but unlike Liisa they chose to keep their culture and language alive and pass it on to their children.
What exacly do you mean when you say that things in Estonia are alien to you? It's equally as much a reflection of how little anything Estonian has stuck for you than it is to infer that life in Estonia has become so unrecognisable. I really think that you are not doing more than paying the most superficial lip service to Estonia, and with people like you around, the culture really has next to no chance of surviving. Sadly, it's also a reflection of how much you are willing to soak in your own environment hook, line and sinker without giving it a second thought.
Yet again, Peter says something silly, then shifts to a new position when challenged. First, he scolds Liisa for failing to live as he thinks she should and, as that draws a laugh, he pastes her with an obligation to her dead ancestors.
What's next? Without a doubt, something equally implausible because it would never occur to Peter that people should be free to live as they wish.
What's next? Without a doubt, something equally implausible because it would never occur to Peter that people should be free to live as they wish.
Welcome back Liisa.
Do your best, give your daughter as much as you can and don't let the criticism of what you should have done or not done 8 years ago make you lose any of your enthusiasm to attend future esto functions.
The iessential thing is you went to LEP, you participated, you loved what you experienced and, most importantly..... you want to continue to improve. BRAVO
Eestlane oled ja eestlaseks ja'ad igavesti!!! Just make sure you keep connected with as many estos as possible now that you have found them again.
Do your best, give your daughter as much as you can and don't let the criticism of what you should have done or not done 8 years ago make you lose any of your enthusiasm to attend future esto functions.
The iessential thing is you went to LEP, you participated, you loved what you experienced and, most importantly..... you want to continue to improve. BRAVO
Eestlane oled ja eestlaseks ja'ad igavesti!!! Just make sure you keep connected with as many estos as possible now that you have found them again.
Pidage meeles, et mitte miski peale eesti keele ei tee teist eestlasi. Mitte mingid võõrkeelsed ringmängud, näitused, hobiringid ei tee teist eestlasi. Kui hakkate esitama küsimusi nagu "why should one learn the language of his choice even though it can't be put to use?", on mäng pooleldi juba kaotatud. Kui võite tõdeda, et inglise keel ei ole enam teie jaoks võõrkeel, on mäng läbi. Võite seda võtta sihukese enesetestina.
"why should one learn the language of his choice even though it can't be put to use?" is a reference to Peter's ugly authoritarian instinct. You've obviously misinterpreted that remark, probably because your English isn't what you believe it to be.
As ever, your comments are calculated to be obnoxiously provokative. Nonetheless, you accidentally allude to an interesting question: what is the substance of ethnic identity? It's a pity that you can't suggest anything that approximates an answer.
As ever, your comments are calculated to be obnoxiously provokative. Nonetheless, you accidentally allude to an interesting question: what is the substance of ethnic identity? It's a pity that you can't suggest anything that approximates an answer.
I thank you for your wonderful kudos and interesting comments.
I am glad my little article promoted such intense dialogue. To Maxim:
I would love to come to Estonia and teach english as an exchange teacher. I speak Estonian fluently and also German. My family in Estonia is all deceased due to the Communists during WWII and old age. To Peter, you are a lost soul
preaching to me about speaking Estonian. Read an anthroplogy book and see that language is the first aspect to weaken. If you speak Estonian so well, then why not write to me in Estonian???
Even help me get a position teaching in Estonia and then my daughter and husband can both learn Estonian!
You should not be so negative, we are all in this cultural "pot" together and should support each other. All of our life experiences are different and I am glad I grew up in a free country that allowed individual languages, religions and cultures. Thank you Canada!
Anymore comments? I really enjoy your closed mindedness, Peter.
Liisa
I am glad my little article promoted such intense dialogue. To Maxim:
I would love to come to Estonia and teach english as an exchange teacher. I speak Estonian fluently and also German. My family in Estonia is all deceased due to the Communists during WWII and old age. To Peter, you are a lost soul
preaching to me about speaking Estonian. Read an anthroplogy book and see that language is the first aspect to weaken. If you speak Estonian so well, then why not write to me in Estonian???
Even help me get a position teaching in Estonia and then my daughter and husband can both learn Estonian!
You should not be so negative, we are all in this cultural "pot" together and should support each other. All of our life experiences are different and I am glad I grew up in a free country that allowed individual languages, religions and cultures. Thank you Canada!
Anymore comments? I really enjoy your closed mindedness, Peter.
Liisa
"I am glad I grew up in a free country that allowed individual languages, religions and cultures. Thank you Canada!"
Stay there.
Stay there.
Peterile see lause küll vastuseks ei kõlvanud. Kui teil, lugupeetav, oleks eesti keele oskust piisavalt, siis saaksite minu kommentaaridest muide paremini aru. Ma ju ei adresseerinud oma juttu kellelegi konkreetselt, vihjasin põhimõtteliselt vaid sellele, et kui pragmaatilised kaalutlused hakkavad esile tõusma, siis on mäng pooleldi kaotatud. Ja ega te selle vastu saagi. Inimesed, kes pidevalt kiitlevad oma inglise keelega, ei saagi seda mängu võita. Te surete välja. Olge hea, tõlkige palun viimase kommentaari viimane lause heasse eesti keelde. Siis saab vaadata kuivõrd eestlane siin ikkagi ollakse. ...oleme ikka tasemele jõudnud, mis? Küsimuse "kes meist on õigeim eestlane" üle vaieldakse nüüd inglise keeles...
It seems that you'll never tire of jeering at us. How is it that you have so much free time on your hands? Are you unemployed, incarcerated or in an asylum?
If so, you could be inspired by the oustanding Canadian poet, Emile Nelligan, who was put into an asylum as a young man and, before he died there at a ripe old age, used his ample free time to compose poetry which will be appreciated so long as the French language is spoken. He is revered. He's even the subject of an opera. He could inspire you to put your free time to a better use.
If so, you could be inspired by the oustanding Canadian poet, Emile Nelligan, who was put into an asylum as a young man and, before he died there at a ripe old age, used his ample free time to compose poetry which will be appreciated so long as the French language is spoken. He is revered. He's even the subject of an opera. He could inspire you to put your free time to a better use.
Liisa,
Kena kuulda sinust. Pole ammu näinud!
Kostab nagu sa oled õigel teel ja olen kindel et sinu tütar sai ka suure Eestluse süsti LREPlt.
Kui oled huvitatud eesti keele nn. kaugõppest sinu tütrele, siis ehk saaksime sulle midagi saata TES Täienduskoolist.
Jõudu!
Kena kuulda sinust. Pole ammu näinud!
Kostab nagu sa oled õigel teel ja olen kindel et sinu tütar sai ka suure Eestluse süsti LREPlt.
Kui oled huvitatud eesti keele nn. kaugõppest sinu tütrele, siis ehk saaksime sulle midagi saata TES Täienduskoolist.
Jõudu!
Üks hästi oluline vahe, mida ei tuleks unustada, on et praegune nii öelda "keskmine põlvkond", kes välismaal sündinud (nii 30+ või tugevamates eesti keskustes ka 20+) oskavad siiski eesti keelt mingil määral. Ühesõnaga valikuvõimalus millist keel kus ja millal rääkida on alati olemas > ja seda tõenäoliselt elu lõpuni: Milline kingitus! Ja seda ei pidanud isegi jõuluvanalt küsima...
Aga kõige noorematel võsudel, kelle jaoks maast madalast selle keele helid ja sõnad loomulikud ei ole, vaat nendel ei ole seda kuldset võimalust > võtta või jätta. Siis tuleb juba võtta ise (isepäiselt ja suurena) ja see on siis juba raskem. Kuid kindlasti mitte võimatu.
Kas keelest ei ole võimalik saada kaihvi? High-d? Selle õppimise aju gümnastikast, võrdlustest, imelikest helidest?
Aga kõige noorematel võsudel, kelle jaoks maast madalast selle keele helid ja sõnad loomulikud ei ole, vaat nendel ei ole seda kuldset võimalust > võtta või jätta. Siis tuleb juba võtta ise (isepäiselt ja suurena) ja see on siis juba raskem. Kuid kindlasti mitte võimatu.
Kas keelest ei ole võimalik saada kaihvi? High-d? Selle õppimise aju gümnastikast, võrdlustest, imelikest helidest?
Kas te ei ole ka tähele pannud, et iga keelega kaasnevad eri TUNDED? Aga seda saab aru vaid siis, kui sul on mida võrrelda. Rääkides ühte või teist keelt on mingil määral nagu eri kostüümi selga tõmbamine.
Kas siis ei ole ka võimalik, et inimese "mina" tegelikult muutub (kas või mõne kraadi võrra heledamaks, tumedamaks või täpilisemaks), olenevalt keelest mida parasjagu ta puhub?
Kui sa ei oska näiteks nii inglise kui ka eesti keelt, siis jäävad paljud kõrgemad varjukohad ja nurgatagused tundmatuks. Teekond ja silmavaade on palju sirgjoonelisem. Kas see tähendab, et jõuad ka kiiremini ja valulisemalt sihini? Ei tea midagi. Läägem sõit.
Kas siis ei ole ka võimalik, et inimese "mina" tegelikult muutub (kas või mõne kraadi võrra heledamaks, tumedamaks või täpilisemaks), olenevalt keelest mida parasjagu ta puhub?
Kui sa ei oska näiteks nii inglise kui ka eesti keelt, siis jäävad paljud kõrgemad varjukohad ja nurgatagused tundmatuks. Teekond ja silmavaade on palju sirgjoonelisem. Kas see tähendab, et jõuad ka kiiremini ja valulisemalt sihini? Ei tea midagi. Läägem sõit.
Teie, Vaarikas ja Puhuja, olete näpu tõe külge pannud aga seda on siiski raske lahti harutada.
Kui ma eesti keelt kõnelen -- paraku kolm neli korda aastas -- mulle tundub et teine, põline iseloom tõuseb esile. Üle pika aja uskusin et see oli mingisugune veider enesepetuhäire mida omistasin sellele et keelt kõnelen harva. Nüüd usun et on muud mängus, aga ei taju täpselt mis see võiks olla. Väga sooviks sellest paremini aru saada. Rahustav on ka teada et on ka teisi samal mõterajal.
Kui ma eesti keelt kõnelen -- paraku kolm neli korda aastas -- mulle tundub et teine, põline iseloom tõuseb esile. Üle pika aja uskusin et see oli mingisugune veider enesepetuhäire mida omistasin sellele et keelt kõnelen harva. Nüüd usun et on muud mängus, aga ei taju täpselt mis see võiks olla. Väga sooviks sellest paremini aru saada. Rahustav on ka teada et on ka teisi samal mõterajal.
Täpselt nii ongi!! Inimene annab reaalsusele mingi konkreetsuse keelekasutamise läbi, aga samas-olenedes selle keele isiklikele omadustele-muudab see ja sügavalt puudutab erilisel viisil seda inimest, kes paraku keelt räägib (või selles keeleruumis "hõljub"). Seepärast ongi nii, et mingil kummalisel ja täiesti arusaamatul põhjusel eestlane võitleb palju agaramalt kui näiteks mari, et kogu keele kaudu saavutatu ning selle läbi süvendatud rahvamälu- ja areng säiliks niikaua kui meie rahval jõudu selleks jätkub. Soome-Ugri omapärane "Sisu" on olulisem meile kui ka soomlastele kui näiteks mõnele teisele meie hõimu vennasrahvale.
iga eestlane peaks lugema Tammsaare "Tõde ja ÕOigus"
....selle lugemine muide on väga mõnus ülesanne.
Actually you are wrong Liisa. English Canada has passed some of the most draconian language laws in the world. Only a few countries have denied native-born ethnic groups the right to not only educate their children in their mother tongue but even to speak it in school as was the case here for decades.
Peter. Do I understand you correctly ? Are you saying that the "Toronto Eesti Kool" is violating Canadian law(s) ? My word Peter. Why haven't you called the cops if you see someone breaking the law ?
To Peep: No, the Toronto Eesti Kool is not a "real" school as Estonian is taught there after hours at the parents' expense. The Eckville Estonian School and all of the German, Ukranian and other full time minority language schools were in violation of the law after the Anglos made such schools illegal.
Kommentaarid sellele artiklile on suletud.