For once I agree with Maxim. I didn't think the day would come. You wrote, "You could have written a little more on the eastern influence on Estonians and their history-I suspect this is a big subject and awaiting to be committed to the annals of history. "
Maxim , I asume you are making reference to the following in the article.
" Horrendous terror and suffering was unleashed on the country during the year that followed: arrests and torture, and executions; but above all the attempt to destroy the Estonian intelligentsia by the deportation to Siberia of ten thousand men, women, and children. "
It looks like we have been successful in changing your way of thinking Maxim. Welcome to the fold Maxim.
I also agree on the good article. Wow! Agree with Maxim twice in one day.

If you do, you'll see the author says that the Russian influence on Estonia (communist period excepted) is pretty thin.
For someone who has difficulty reading and writing, you sure do act like a heavy-duty intellectual.
And now that your back in Estonia where you belong, why do you keep coming back here to bug us. In other words, why do you hate us?

I think that Maxim has a grudge against us because we haven't acknowledged his "omniscience". (Look it up in the dictionary, Maxim, you stupid asol.) Estonians and Russians probably feel the same way and he probably has a grudge against them as well. So, we shouldn't feel singled out.

keep you comments under your personal moniker .... you only speak for yourself

Is a joke still a joke if it simply isn't funny?

Again, you posted your opinion before deciding what it is. It shows because it's always so vague and garbled.
You say that, "Many wonderful Estonians are also Orthodox ... and have inherited or incorporated certain cultural elements both individually and collectively." That sounds like vapouring to me. Can you prove me wrong by giving us some concrete examples?
Orthodox Christians are about 10% of the population. Their cultural contribution, if such an intangible could be measured, would probably be proportionate to their to their numbers. Can't imagine how it could be otherwise.
Pärt is certainly a significant contemporary composer, but is his work greater than the cummulative weight of Lutheran artists over the past 150 Years? Everything from Kreutzwald to Tammsaare to Tamberg? Doesn't sound plausible to me.
What's more plausible is that you have come here, yet again, to haze us with a provokation. But why? You are in Estonia now. Why can't you simply forget about us and whatever injuries we did to you?

Read the tone of your comment compared to mine, and I'm sure you'll find there is no venom in it at all. You don't have to agree with the opinion, for goodness sake!! Why do you get so upset? Don't throw the blame back on me;and please don't tell me that I have less right to be here than you-that I find completely objectionable (as you no doubt would too) and beneath human dignity to go throwing weight around like that. If anything, we have to agree on the fact that if you or I are actually biased at times, then at least we should be grateful that the editorial board makes up for all our shortcomings, and allows opinon of various sorts to appear here. Thank you to EE's advisers and tolerant editors for displaying such a positive attitude, which is more often than not the very antithesis of the attitude of some people who comment here.

Maxim makes an insulting comment about our culture, then adds that, if we disagree with him, it's because we're Lutherans.
You witness this scene and call it school yard name-calling. I don't understand you.

So Maxim started the name-calling...
I said to stick with the subject of the article.

Your posting made me understand something and now I understand what it is about Maxim that really bugs me.
If he was just opinionated, I'd say so what. Who isn't? If he was just a know-it-all, big deal. He just makes himself look dumb. If he says things that are wrong? Well, who doesn't?
What gets me is that he comes here to insult us. He has got a smart-mouthed round-about way of doing it so that it looks like it's "nobody here but innocent me, just trying to advance intellectual discussion."
You used the word "insulting". Funny, but it hit me. Now I understand Maxim. And now he can't get on my nerves anymore. Thanks.

General Dudaev is married to an Estonian and had a german shepherd named "Clinton".

Doing a little research on the net , I discover that "Even Dudaev's wife was a Russian woman from Estonia." I believe it is a stretch to call her an Estonian. Also the Canadian Encyclopedia has an entry " ...there, with his Russian-born wife Alevtina nearby...". By the way you write " General Dudaev IS married .. ". For your information , General Dudaev was reportedly killed on the night of 20-21 April 1996 by a Russian aviation strike . It would be hard for him to be still married. By the way I agree that "Clinton " was a dog. ( It sure sounds like someone is pushing Maxims agenda. )
I

no one is pushing anyone's agenda ... it is important to have a full disclosure of available information so that people can intelligently make up their own minds ... thanks for the additional information on dudaev

So you don't mind if "Eveyone can have a field day in expressing what they wish about me-I don't mind in the least." Really? How is it that you are so quick with a prickly response?
"I'm sticking with expressing ideas." Yes indeed -- ideas that are false and insulting, such as, Lutherans are stupid.
"I said that Orthodoxy as a feature of Estonian culture is something that is all too little understood or even researched. There have been some wonderful programs in recent years about Orthodoxy in Estonia, most notably a film about the Old Believers," Is that a fact? This is your first mention of Old Believers. Moreover, Lutherans can tell you something about Old Believers that you obviously don't know. Old Believers are as detached from the Orthodox Church as Lutherans are from the Catholic Church.

Who has mangled your arguments and in what way?
You yourself, when challenged, have shifted from "eastern influence" to "Orthodox influence" to "Old Believer" . Now you ask us to "not mangle my arguments" as if we knew what they might be. You shift the ground under your feet and then, as the need arises, you retreat into the incomrehensible like, "I hope you now understand the difference in what I have said"?

not only are the old believers an interesting and coherent group of religious observers for hundreds of years in Estonia, who have earned hard-earned respect from Estonians everywhere (at least within Estonia) but there awaits a whole "book and verse" history of Estonian Orthodoxy since the mid- 1800's when they first wandered into the Russian hinterland in search of improving their lot.

"ideas that are false and insulting, such as, Lutherans are stupid". I'm only quick to respond to the lies made about my ideas, such as the one above. Show me exactly, word for word, where I have stated that Lutherans are stupid??? I have said no such thing and you know it...you are merely trying to provoke another hatred campaign against me and it's not going to work!!

Funny, that every time "Maxim" manages to broaden the scope of the subject at hand, "Anonymous" manages to quickly shut the door on anything to do with that topic, due to her extremely limited knowledge about Estonian history at large. Pity.

You are just too obvious, Maxim. Its your style and substance. Only you would say that your trying to "broaden the scope of the subject at hand". Other people would use words like -- lecture, goad, taunt, denigrate, slander, smear & etc.

Maxim. In a previous posting you state that, "Unfortunately, Lutheranism has not contributed as much to Estonian cultural development as has Orthodoxy..... Most of you may of course disagree with me, and chances are you're probably of Lutheran background anyway, which explains that reason."
So, you state that the 80% who are Lutheran haven't contributed as much to Estonian culture as the 10% who are Orthodox. If anyone disagrees, you add, then it's because they're Lutheran -- not because they might be right.
This kind of stereotyping would be amusing if it wasn't so ugly and, most certainly, it isn't "broadening the scope of the subject at hand" or any of the other euphemisms that you use to describe your taunts and insults.
For the most part, I resent your presence here. But, I can't help but wonder about your motivation to sustain such a long-lasting and bitter campaign. I can only speculate that you have suffered a terrible injustice at the hands of "väliseestlased". Whatever it is, I hope that you get over it. (Hatred corrodes its container first.)
I believe that Lutherans and the Orthodox both pray to the same God. I will pray that you find a way to lay your life's burden at the foot of His son's cross and that the hand of Jesus pours peace into your heart. Be certain, I will do this every time that that you post another slap accross our face.
In return, I'll ask you to consider a constructive suggestion -- I've noticed an astounding improvement in your ability to express yourself over the past year or so. Obviously, you've put some effort into it. With some editing, you could write something publishable. Why not compose an article for Eesti Elu? Part one -- on growing up Estonian in Canada; part two -- integrating into society in Estonia. We would read this with considerable interest and it just might be the excorcism that you need.
Whatever you do, rest assured that I will continue to pray for you.
By the way, you've often jumped to conclusions about your critics so I should tell you inadvance that it would be a mistake assume that I'm Lutheran. You'd be surprised, although, it's only important that we're all Christians. Peace be with you.

It is not the fact that Lutherans haven't contributed anything, it is the fact that the cultural quality is different. That in itself produces a different outcome. I strongly suggest that if Arvo Pärt had chosen to look towards Lutheran music to inspire his works, then apart from the outcome being different, I would also imagine the quality would not be the same. If this were not the case, then others would have gone down that path a long time ago. Albeit said that author Enn Nõu has made a good dint into some aspects of this Orthodox clan of Estonians-in this case "muhulased" in his most recent novel. But this is still only the tip of the iceberg. I hope there's more research and documentation of this subject further along the way. I hope I managed to say this time what I wanted to say without any malice intended.

As if we need more fractionization of our people!
Why are you making such a big number out of it?
Orthodox, Lutheran, Baptist..... we're all Estonian!
My one set of grandparents were Orthodox. The other were Lutheran. I didn't see any difference. They grew up and lived in the same country. Only difference I can see, is that the Orthodox grandparents came from a region that wasn't as well educated as the Lutheran grandparents'. They were a bit more naive. I'm certain that had nothing to do with their religion. The Lutheran grandparents seemed more cultured to me, but that had to do with education & situation, not religion!

It is interesting to note that the fractionalization you speak of is in fact the very fortitude (some call it "sisu") that has made the Estonian people what they are. It is their phenomenal ability to be stretched to limits of absurdity that has catapaulted Estonians to the stage of development they are presently undergoing. I am proud of this friction, and the results it has forged for us collectively. I'm glad that you have come here and given me an earful of what you think of me, and though these arguments make us cross and upset, in the end it becomes our strength. I'm pleased to see that you are so proud of your own heritage; others have a lot to learn from you!

You have alerted us to a terrific web-site; it is very informative and written in beautiful English.

Thanks for your informed commentary. I should point out, however, that it is not the patriotism of the religious groups that is in question; rather, it is the relative cultural accomplishment that is at issue in Maxim's allegation. Nonetheless, you have pointed out the truth of the matter by implication. Well done.

Maxim's ideas about Orthodoxy are based on a mix of hidden influences and ulterior motives where fact and truth are secondary. Mostly, he wants to rile us by showing his disdain for us.
He is doing an effective job of it. I wonder what it would take to get him to stop?

Maxim. -- You ought to know that Arvo Pärt composes religious music with the Latin text of the Roman Catholic tradition. Rachmaninov, by contrast, uses the Old Church Slavonic of the Orthodox tradition.

There is plenty that you can legitimately haze us Estonians with, (since we're only human), but Orthodox superiority, as exemplified by Arvo Pärt, isn't one of them.

With all due respect to you, I think that you have got your facts a little wrong. Besides Pärt writing music in Old Slavonic which he has supposedly done quite a bit of lately-especially his greatest musical work to date (Kanon Pokajanen, which, with my limited musical knowledge, I understand to be a musical composition in the Old Slavonic tradition), he is known to visit the Russian Orthodox Church in Vene street, Tallinn whilst visiting here. However, I hope these matters don't deter you or anyone else from respecting the man's music and contribution to Estonian Culture, even if it is slightly to the "East" of what some people would expect to be EC.

Maxim's comments on Pärt's music should be taken with a large grain of salt, (cow-lick sized).

To those interested in Pärt, I'll recommend the following web-site: http://www.musicolog.com/part_...

Maxim -- there is no need to worry. Most Estonian-Canadians can handle the fact that Pärt composed something with a Slavonic text. Nor will we shun him, now that you've told us that he whorshiped in an Orthodox church. Why? Simply because we don't care one way or the other about his choice of Church. For the most part, Estonian-Canadians are decent people, not the bigots you'd make us out to be.
I wish that you'd go to a Church. There you'd learn that your mind isn't the centre of the universe.

If you suffer from a bad case of bigotry, then there's really no need to inflict your problem onto me. I have never called you or anyone else a bigot, because I don't make a habit of using bad language like most of my critics do. But that's not the point of my current post. What's important is to have the freedom to discuss topics of interest, and to share opinions. I would be grateful to you if you discontinued to present me in a negative light, and just argue to facts as they are. But no-you always have to go off the deep end and start shooting the messenger as usual. As it happens, most of what I have said about Pärt is supported by information available at the website you highlight in your post, and I thank you for making that available to all of us as an additional source of information. In fact, the most interesting post listed here is, as usual, the one and only one posted by Peter. I thank him both for his continuing courtesy towards everyone, and his fact-brimming thoughts on Orthodoxy. However, I think most non-Orthodox don't seem to understand the beauty behind our religion, as it is really a "heaven on earth" sensation to be part of this faith. Undoubtedly this aspect has important positive implications, in this case, in Pärt's music. Happy Paastumaarja Päev to all.

Maxim -- Your praise for Peter looks foolish as he expresses a view opposite to your own.

In this manner, you put yourself in a bad light. Nobody has to do it for you.

Your brains have turned to snot. Blow it out through your nose.

Wrong attitude! I'm not in the business on proving to be right inasmuch as offering an opinion. The strength is always in the breadth of the argument. You shoot yourself down in flames, because you've got indicate your strong need to be right every time, and that seems to be the priority of a lot of people commenting here. This is unfortunate indeed. I am happy to concede that I find Peter's comments very interesting and intellectually very strong, as he has done his homework. Most of you others just get emotional behind the ears and don't understand the true meaning of arguing to further a subject for its own sake, because you've got caught up with some stupid fix in your mind about Maxim or Peter, and then go in for the kill with guns blazing everytime we dare to write a comment. Unlike you, I respect Peter even if I don't always agree with him, but he is courteous to the end and never reduces himself to wasting words on others. I think the board of EE would welcome more of this kind of attitude when writing comments.

1) Maxim states the [false and insulting] fact that the Lutheran contribution to Estonian culture doesn't amount to much.

2) Reader reaction is predictably indignant.

3) Maxim feigns surprise, asks for courtesy and respect, and says that he was merely expressing an opinion.

4) The infamous Peter arrives on the scene to contradict Maxim with an opposite statement of fact. Maxim welcomes this. [Proof of Maxim's mendacity or mental illness.]

What can we conclude from this demented theatre-piece?

1) Maxim will not acknowledge the difference between a fact and an opinion because it would ruin his game-plan; which is to insult, taunt, goad or -- generally -- to "let the cat among the pigeons".

2) It is very incomfortable to be the victim in Maxim's game.

I agree with the previous comment. I'd add that I find it more than just a little bit wierd that Maxim feels entitled to monopolize this space as his personal blog. That's some ego. He reminds me of a Parisien waiter who thinks that haughtiness is a part of good service.

You also have a problem. How can you let Maxim get under your skin so much? I dismiss him as a nut. You can't but should before he drives you crazy which is his exact intention. He would like to drive us all crazy. I sure would like to know what happened to him to make him so bitter. Even after moving to Estonia he still can't let us go. Wonder why. One thing -- It seems that he didn't have a good time in his frat. Well that is true for a lot of us and we just quit and move on. Maybe he got singled out for some extra bullying. Frats can do that. Got some myself before getting out. I like the Estonian-Canadian community and participate fairly actively. But the frat life I can do without. There were only a couple of jerks in mine but that was enough to pollute the atmosphere. A lot of the guys that I joined with are still on the books but never attend any meetings. Anyway it seems like Maxim left Canada with some wounds that haven't healed yet. Its too bad for everybody involved.

I like Maxim and Peter because they spice this space. The fact that they get under other people's skin is a problem for others, and I would suggest they start accepting these two gentlemen for what they are-intelligent and entertaining. I find many of these comments to be below the belt, and the personal attacks are completely out of place. But some people want to claim both victim status and lead the pack at the same time, and blame the friction on Peter and Maxim. I would suggest these people take a deep breath, and start again at the beginning if need be.