Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
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Eesti Maja building
is ugly, dysfunctional and not profitable. It is only conveniently located to those who currently live in the area, while the next generation has mostly moved to the 905 area code. There are thousands of Estonians in the GTA who do not feel any strong sentiment for the building and would welcome a change in location that could attract a new and fresh group of leadership, management and participation
is ugly, dysfunctional and not profitable. It is only conveniently located to those who currently live in the area, while the next generation has mostly moved to the 905 area code. There are thousands of Estonians in the GTA who do not feel any strong sentiment for the building and would welcome a change in location that could attract a new and fresh group of leadership, management and participation
This is an issue that should be determined by the shareholders. Those who have demonstrated their concern and commitment to our community with a hard financial investment.
Writers, et.al., can meet somewhere else to talk about other people's money and how it should be invested.
Writers, et.al., can meet somewhere else to talk about other people's money and how it should be invested.
I hope that this doesn't turn into an ugly and immoral attack on a worthwhile institution like the one we saw at Ehatare.
After an employee lost her job (probably, for good reason) her friends launched a well-organised and energetic attack to get revenge. It looks as if it has fizzled out, but; for a while, it appeared to be destructive.
The problem turned on legal convention -- parties to a lawsuit remain silent until the matter is resolved. They did so, but; no one gagged the friends of the plaintiff.
They let loose with a slick campaign of slander and even some sabotage. For a while, they even gulled some people at Eesti Elu, giving rise to some yellow journalism. (The residents at Ehatare were ready to cancel their subscriptions, en masse.) And it broke my heart to see a respectable pastor fished into this shameful episode.
Ehatare will survive. Yet there is a rift in our community, made permanent by a gang of young people with no family connections to Ehatare, who will make no financial contribution to a new Ehatare, a new Eesti Maja or anything else. They will not even take out a subscription to Eesti Elu.
Never again will I applaud when "she" speaks in her hopelessly ungrammatical Estonian, or sings in her incomprehensibly accented French, convinced that she is a star, adored by all.
Ten years from today, people moving into Ehatare will speak better English than Estonian. Then, there will no longer be a need for an Ehatare, Eesti Maja, Eesti Elu or anything else Estonian, outside of Estonia. Until then, the gang should either make a contribution, or back off. These institutions were built with the hard-earned savings of new immigrants, now living in Ehatare.
Out of basic decency, please let them live out their lives in peace.
After an employee lost her job (probably, for good reason) her friends launched a well-organised and energetic attack to get revenge. It looks as if it has fizzled out, but; for a while, it appeared to be destructive.
The problem turned on legal convention -- parties to a lawsuit remain silent until the matter is resolved. They did so, but; no one gagged the friends of the plaintiff.
They let loose with a slick campaign of slander and even some sabotage. For a while, they even gulled some people at Eesti Elu, giving rise to some yellow journalism. (The residents at Ehatare were ready to cancel their subscriptions, en masse.) And it broke my heart to see a respectable pastor fished into this shameful episode.
Ehatare will survive. Yet there is a rift in our community, made permanent by a gang of young people with no family connections to Ehatare, who will make no financial contribution to a new Ehatare, a new Eesti Maja or anything else. They will not even take out a subscription to Eesti Elu.
Never again will I applaud when "she" speaks in her hopelessly ungrammatical Estonian, or sings in her incomprehensibly accented French, convinced that she is a star, adored by all.
Ten years from today, people moving into Ehatare will speak better English than Estonian. Then, there will no longer be a need for an Ehatare, Eesti Maja, Eesti Elu or anything else Estonian, outside of Estonia. Until then, the gang should either make a contribution, or back off. These institutions were built with the hard-earned savings of new immigrants, now living in Ehatare.
Out of basic decency, please let them live out their lives in peace.
"... hopelessly ungrammatical Estonian ..."
Wow. That is indeed unforgiveable!
:))))))))))))))))))))))))
Wow. That is indeed unforgiveable!
:))))))))))))))))))))))))
If our young people, who express pride in their heritage, spent one hour per week reading Eesti Elu, they would be speaking tolerable Estonian within a year.
That's much less time than some of spent trying to destroy Ehatare.
That's much less time than some of spent trying to destroy Ehatare.
Rather than nitpick at peoples grammar, why not be happy that they are speaking Estonian at all? I know for a fact that it is precisely this kind of critical attitude that has driven many people away from Esto society in Toronto which is most unfortunate. And frankly, if proper Estonian grammar were a requirement for participating in Esto society in Toronto then the society would be tiny indeed.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Rahu, ainult rahu (07:09)
Strange that someone who entitles his/her comment "Peace" chooses to ignore the issue at hand and instead segues into yet another personal attack on a former employee of Ehatare and the events surrounding her dismissal. It is hard to answer such a corrosive screed in gentlemanly fashion but it can't be allowed to stand uncorrected.
Perhaps "Peace" should make peace with the fact that a judge will decide whether there was good reason for the firing based on evidence, not Peace's mere opinion that it was "probably for good reasons". Secondly, it is not clear whether the interests of Ehatare residents were well served by the board and ITS supporters on this particular issue. Ehatare residents in large numbers were initially shocked and perturbed at losing the employee in question, circulating a petition for her reinstatement. Many described her in very fond terms and wondered how they would do without her blithe spirit. What happened after that was stressful for all concerned but suffice it to say that there was another "gang" (distasteful term used by Peace) in play, the Board members and their supporters who had far more opportunity to sway residents. Let's just call them "B" group. The people, not gang (let's call them A group) who were justifiably concerned about the repercussions of the employee's dismissal for their loved ones in Ehatare made a constructive recommendation that the board and employee sit down together with a mediator and try to reach an understanding without going to court (and its associated costs). This was rejected out of hand by the board with no explanation. Then other unrelated but bothersome facts emerged. As just one example, there was a conflict of interest in that the head of the administrative board was also chief medical officer for Ehatare, something not allowed under Ontario regulations for retirement homes. (He subsequently resigned the medical officer position). Alarmed by what appeared to be a board impervious to constructive criticism, other candidates put their names forward as volunteers the following year. As far as being organized, Group B was far more so. The board chairman arrived at the annual meeting with enough proxy votes to outvote the people actually attending the meeting and see himself and the rest of the board safely re-elected. Since the proxy voters did not attend the meeting they had no opportunity to hear opposing views or concerns. This was not democracy at its finest.
"Peace" smears the individuals who became concerned about what they saw as flawed decision making by the board as having no legitimate interest in the running of Ehatare, out for "revenge" for their "friend" the dismissed employee, non-contributors to Ehatare and Estonian society in general. All untrue. The gross caricature as ill-intentioned people disturbing the peace of elderly Ehatare residents for nefarious purposes was particularly distasteful. Not content with that, he/she makes graceless and personal remarks about the dismissed employee, insulting every Estonian speaker with less than perfect grammar to boot. "Peace" has roiled waters that were best left to settle and to no good discernible purpose. Here's hoping the necessary discussion about the fate of Estonian House can proceed in healthy fashion without the same taint. It would help to assume that people with opposing views may be equally well intentioned to oneself and to present reasoned argument instead of baseless innuendo.
Perhaps "Peace" should make peace with the fact that a judge will decide whether there was good reason for the firing based on evidence, not Peace's mere opinion that it was "probably for good reasons". Secondly, it is not clear whether the interests of Ehatare residents were well served by the board and ITS supporters on this particular issue. Ehatare residents in large numbers were initially shocked and perturbed at losing the employee in question, circulating a petition for her reinstatement. Many described her in very fond terms and wondered how they would do without her blithe spirit. What happened after that was stressful for all concerned but suffice it to say that there was another "gang" (distasteful term used by Peace) in play, the Board members and their supporters who had far more opportunity to sway residents. Let's just call them "B" group. The people, not gang (let's call them A group) who were justifiably concerned about the repercussions of the employee's dismissal for their loved ones in Ehatare made a constructive recommendation that the board and employee sit down together with a mediator and try to reach an understanding without going to court (and its associated costs). This was rejected out of hand by the board with no explanation. Then other unrelated but bothersome facts emerged. As just one example, there was a conflict of interest in that the head of the administrative board was also chief medical officer for Ehatare, something not allowed under Ontario regulations for retirement homes. (He subsequently resigned the medical officer position). Alarmed by what appeared to be a board impervious to constructive criticism, other candidates put their names forward as volunteers the following year. As far as being organized, Group B was far more so. The board chairman arrived at the annual meeting with enough proxy votes to outvote the people actually attending the meeting and see himself and the rest of the board safely re-elected. Since the proxy voters did not attend the meeting they had no opportunity to hear opposing views or concerns. This was not democracy at its finest.
"Peace" smears the individuals who became concerned about what they saw as flawed decision making by the board as having no legitimate interest in the running of Ehatare, out for "revenge" for their "friend" the dismissed employee, non-contributors to Ehatare and Estonian society in general. All untrue. The gross caricature as ill-intentioned people disturbing the peace of elderly Ehatare residents for nefarious purposes was particularly distasteful. Not content with that, he/she makes graceless and personal remarks about the dismissed employee, insulting every Estonian speaker with less than perfect grammar to boot. "Peace" has roiled waters that were best left to settle and to no good discernible purpose. Here's hoping the necessary discussion about the fate of Estonian House can proceed in healthy fashion without the same taint. It would help to assume that people with opposing views may be equally well intentioned to oneself and to present reasoned argument instead of baseless innuendo.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Lootus (09:43)
I don't doubt that you mean well, but; you're misinformed on some relevant matters.
(1) "...a judge will decide whether there was good reason for the firing..." Not so.
In Ontario's employment law, an employee can be dismissed "without cause"; In that case, the only matter to be resolved is the details of an appropriate severance package.
(2) Yes, we (residents and their family members) were initially shocked and perturbed at losing the employee in question. It was a self-appointed busy-body from the outside, however, known to us but with with no substantial connection to Ehatare, who pressured residents to sign the petition you mention. One resident signed twice; another, reluctantly.
Our concern for smooth operations abated when the employee was replaced and Ehatare continued to function normally. The lesson here is that no one is irreplaceable.
(3) The only calls for mediation amounted to informal comments on Facebook and Eesti Elu and those were precluded by a lawsuit launched by the dismissed employee.
(4) Such matters rarely end up in court. In most cases, legal counsels quickly negotiate a settlement informally.
Why this one has dragged on for two years, with no end in sight, is a mystery.
(5) What specifically are you referring to when you mention "constructive criticism"? Could it be the campaign of harassment -- the long series of anonymous complaints to the Ministry?
For your information, they have all proved to be without merit, apart from the conflict of interest which preserved medical care in Estonian.
(6) The vigilantes who campaigned for a place on the Board lost because they lacked credibility.Their credentials were flimsy; and their campaign platform -- destructive. What's to be said for getting rid of medical care in Estonian?
For residents and their family members, this was worrisome.
As the child of a resident, I'm as mad as a wet hen at the Board's passivity. Many of the comments on Facebook were actionable slanders.
A legal response could have stopped the war on Ehatare in its tracks.
(1) "...a judge will decide whether there was good reason for the firing..." Not so.
In Ontario's employment law, an employee can be dismissed "without cause"; In that case, the only matter to be resolved is the details of an appropriate severance package.
(2) Yes, we (residents and their family members) were initially shocked and perturbed at losing the employee in question. It was a self-appointed busy-body from the outside, however, known to us but with with no substantial connection to Ehatare, who pressured residents to sign the petition you mention. One resident signed twice; another, reluctantly.
Our concern for smooth operations abated when the employee was replaced and Ehatare continued to function normally. The lesson here is that no one is irreplaceable.
(3) The only calls for mediation amounted to informal comments on Facebook and Eesti Elu and those were precluded by a lawsuit launched by the dismissed employee.
(4) Such matters rarely end up in court. In most cases, legal counsels quickly negotiate a settlement informally.
Why this one has dragged on for two years, with no end in sight, is a mystery.
(5) What specifically are you referring to when you mention "constructive criticism"? Could it be the campaign of harassment -- the long series of anonymous complaints to the Ministry?
For your information, they have all proved to be without merit, apart from the conflict of interest which preserved medical care in Estonian.
(6) The vigilantes who campaigned for a place on the Board lost because they lacked credibility.Their credentials were flimsy; and their campaign platform -- destructive. What's to be said for getting rid of medical care in Estonian?
For residents and their family members, this was worrisome.
As the child of a resident, I'm as mad as a wet hen at the Board's passivity. Many of the comments on Facebook were actionable slanders.
A legal response could have stopped the war on Ehatare in its tracks.
I am in my 40s. I would like a new cultural centre in line with my interests and that of my children. I would like it built either on the existing property or nearby because of the close access to public transit. If condos could be bulit for empty nester babyboomers as part of the deal, then wonderful.
The people who want the old house to stay the way it is seem to be people in their 70s and 80s who, unfortunately, will not be around for long, yet want to dictate what I will have to deal with long after they are gone.
What happened to "Las noored teevad...?"
The people who want the old house to stay the way it is seem to be people in their 70s and 80s who, unfortunately, will not be around for long, yet want to dictate what I will have to deal with long after they are gone.
What happened to "Las noored teevad...?"
Isn't there some plan to build an addition to Tartu College to replace Eesti maja? Sounds good to me. Even more central than it is now, easier to administer 2 places than one, some other positives as well. When I heard there was such an idea I thought it was awesome. Apparently though, the stumbling block is getting the admins of both buildings to work together. A shame if that were to prevent such a logical idea from going forward. Anyhow, that's what a little birdie whispered in my ear ...
Tartu College has its own problems. It is owned by the provincial government and it is not that easy to add commercial space like EM. It is easy to get to by transit, but not so easy by car. Current location is a good compromise.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: rahamees (09:20)
EM belongs to its shareholders. It is well known who hold the most shares. Shareholders decision is influenced by financiers' and community's (users of the EM) input (although sometime these groups overlap). This process is well underway. If one or the other group wants to lobby for certain outcome, it is perfectly within their rights.
And I see no point bringing in any ghosts of Ehatare, completely irrelevant and self serving to certain individuals with personal vendettas.
And I see no point bringing in any ghosts of Ehatare, completely irrelevant and self serving to certain individuals with personal vendettas.
On one account, you are dead right!
EM belongs to the shareholders! And people unwilling to belly up to the bar, with some bucks in hand, don't have a say in its future. That they might be smarter and better intentioned has no bearing on the matter.
It's for that reason that the Ehatare experience is relevant. For a measly $5 (later, upped to $10 and restricted to people with a vague connection to our community), anyone could buy a vote. These trivial restrictions were put into place to dampen a proxy-war aimed at toppling the Board and lynching the Administrator.
And then what? ... Well, who cares? Apart from their friend, in the form of a fired employee, the lynch-mob had no stake in Ehatare and nothing to lose.
With a parent in Ehatare, we care plenty.
It was a dirty war. The mob used slander and sabotage and Board members were paralyzed with fear, like a rabbit before a snake.
Eesti Maja, Ehatare, Jõekääru, Kotkajärv, Ühispank, etc., are all integral parts of our community. They should be managed with community purposes in mind.
Mob members should be basted with urine!
EM belongs to the shareholders! And people unwilling to belly up to the bar, with some bucks in hand, don't have a say in its future. That they might be smarter and better intentioned has no bearing on the matter.
It's for that reason that the Ehatare experience is relevant. For a measly $5 (later, upped to $10 and restricted to people with a vague connection to our community), anyone could buy a vote. These trivial restrictions were put into place to dampen a proxy-war aimed at toppling the Board and lynching the Administrator.
And then what? ... Well, who cares? Apart from their friend, in the form of a fired employee, the lynch-mob had no stake in Ehatare and nothing to lose.
With a parent in Ehatare, we care plenty.
It was a dirty war. The mob used slander and sabotage and Board members were paralyzed with fear, like a rabbit before a snake.
Eesti Maja, Ehatare, Jõekääru, Kotkajärv, Ühispank, etc., are all integral parts of our community. They should be managed with community purposes in mind.
Mob members should be basted with urine!
This commenter should hold up a mirror to see someone conducting a "dirty war". Describing people with a different opinion as "snakes", "lynch mob" out to "slander and sabotage" and the final disgusting sentence which I will not repeat is rabble rousing, not reasoned discourse.
I have been a great supporter of the Toronto Estonian society for years, but since becoming mugged here for sharing my opinions I have decided to let bygones be bygones. I have no more interest in anything Estonian that takes place in Canada nor do I particularly support the sustaining of Estonian culture in Canada. The quicker someone amputates the remains of what is in a disastrous shambles as it is, the easier Canadians can find their identity amidst the strong multicultural trends that have become the standard bearer of living in Toronto.
It sounds like you are going to leave us in peace.
No more lectures on our fathers being Nazi collaborators and our mothers -- sluts, who "put out for German soldiers. That is welcome news, indeed!
Before you close the door behind you, please tell us how, or why, you adopted the silly Russian/French name: Maxim de la Trine?
No more lectures on our fathers being Nazi collaborators and our mothers -- sluts, who "put out for German soldiers. That is welcome news, indeed!
Before you close the door behind you, please tell us how, or why, you adopted the silly Russian/French name: Maxim de la Trine?
I have to say, I'm unpleasantly surprised at the number of supporters for the promoter of name calling and urine basting. I didn't think there were that many Estonians with such low standards. Have they never heard of calling one's own side to order when they step over the line?
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Lootus (09:43), Lootus (09:47)
Siit lugedes on ikka tunda: "Eestlase lemmiktoit on teine eestlane." Kahju.
Selles kodusõjas, mõned kaitsevad oma vanureid, teised oma koorijuhti.
"Selles kodusõjas, mõned kaitsevad oma vanureid, teised oma koorijuhti."
Kas koorijuht siis kahjustas vanureid? Kas ründas neid lauluga? Need samad kes kutsusid teda nende "päikesekiireks" ja esitasid ühise palvekirja, et teda tagasi tuuakse? Te väga eksite kui arvate, et lahti lastud töölise laimajad on ainult vanurite hea eest väljas ja tema toetajad olid ainult ühe koori liikmed. Koor ei koosne sajanditest inimestest kes kirjutasid Internetil oma headest muljetest tema töö kohta üle aastate nende Ehatare isade ja emadega.
Kas koorijuht siis kahjustas vanureid? Kas ründas neid lauluga? Need samad kes kutsusid teda nende "päikesekiireks" ja esitasid ühise palvekirja, et teda tagasi tuuakse? Te väga eksite kui arvate, et lahti lastud töölise laimajad on ainult vanurite hea eest väljas ja tema toetajad olid ainult ühe koori liikmed. Koor ei koosne sajanditest inimestest kes kirjutasid Internetil oma headest muljetest tema töö kohta üle aastate nende Ehatare isade ja emadega.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Lootus (09:43), Lootus (09:47), Lootus (09:58)
Unfortunately the writer of the Article failed to acknowledge the proven fact that EM is not sustainable in it's current obsolete and inefficient form, nor offer any ideas on how to fund the idea to 'renovate, and upgrade to present standards'. Concerned members are working diligently and tirelessly on bringing an actionable, realistic and sustainable proposal to provide an EM for the next several generations. The current one will definitely sink before too long! Lets get behind an idea for a new EM and make it a beacon to revitalize our community and something we can be proud of...an idea that should have happened 20 years ago when it would have been an easier prospect...but the next best time is now.
For many years, Dr. Leesment's dual role at Ehatare was tolerated because everyone understood that there's a need for an Estonian speaking physician there.
The lynch mob didn't care. They have no loved ones at Ehatare. So they made a big fuss about the matter and, now, our old folks are deprived of Estonian language medical care.
The lynch mob didn't care. They have no loved ones at Ehatare. So they made a big fuss about the matter and, now, our old folks are deprived of Estonian language medical care.
Kui kôik need arvamuse avaldajad esineksid oma nime all, siis jääks palju inetut ütlemata ja meie ühiskond oleks sellevôrra tugevam.
Lp. hr. Toomes: sabotööridInetud märkused on lõpuks nagu vesi hane seljast.
Meie ühiskond oleks õieti tugevam kui Ehatare juhatus paljastaks oma selgroogu ja kutsuks isikute laimajad ja Ehatare sabotöörid korrale.
Meie ühiskond oleks õieti tugevam kui Ehatare juhatus paljastaks oma selgroogu ja kutsuks isikute laimajad ja Ehatare sabotöörid korrale.
Ironic and sad that the Memoir Writers Group who is blessed with free rooms and funding from Tartu College is disrupting an Esto House project whose objectives include achieving the same benefits for community groups operating at Esto House. No rental fees and a contemporary functional building funded by third party leases would be a huge improvement to the current Esto House where rising rents and failing infrastructure threaten viability of our community. The process underway at Esto House was approved democratically by virtually all shareholders. It is unfortunate if the Memoirs Group does not like the outcome of that vote but at least let's allow the process to run its course. Then judge the outcome. Certainly the Esto House Tulevik Committee is not out to destroy our heritage nor do they disrespect accomplishments of past generations. Esto House shareholders will be asked to approve any development proposal before contracts are signed or action taken. At that time the shareholders must determine if the new Esto House solution includes all the highly ranked needs and will operate with a viable business model, as mandated by the Esto House Town Hall meetings. If it turns out that new Esto House will not include the top community wants and needs or is not self-funding then that is the time to vote "no". Until then please be patient, respectful and stop this divisive petitioning. Similarly the Ehatare factions should take their discourse elsewhere as it is not relevant to this article or the Esto House project. Thank you.
Unfortunately, the pro-Ehatare faction (i.e. family members of residents) have no voice.
The Board is gagged by their lawyer.
The newspaper, previously pro-lynch mob, is now silent and not available to residents and their families.
From a pulpit, there was once a call to pray for Rosie. That's just swell!
I'm prepared to pray for everyone -- especially my mother and her her co-residents! They also matter!
The Board is gagged by their lawyer.
The newspaper, previously pro-lynch mob, is now silent and not available to residents and their families.
From a pulpit, there was once a call to pray for Rosie. That's just swell!
I'm prepared to pray for everyone -- especially my mother and her her co-residents! They also matter!
I apologize to those who rightly feel irritated that the discourse about Eesti Maja has been hijacked by the Ehatare controversy. Unfortunately, the commenter signed "Peace" linked the two in a comment that was so one-sided that in all fairness it needed to be balanced out. If the ensuing discussion re Ehatare can be transferred into its own separate thread, I'm all for it.
In answer to the person who started their comment: "I don't doubt that you mean well", let me say that I almost felt the same about you until I got to the word "vigiliantes". It is you who may be misinformed including the idea that a previously satisfactory amployee can be dismissed "without cause" with no legal repercussions. Indeed, even if the employee is not fired but their duties changed in a negative way, that may be termed "constructive dismissal" and again, is a risky venture for an employer to undertake without an ironclad case as Employment Law often sides with employees.
Re your points #2 and #5 you seem unaware of pressure exerted on Ehatare residents in the opposite direction by the Board and its supporters including proxy voters who did not even attend the general meeting. How do you think elderly residents feel when the man ultimately responsible for their medical care expresses his determination to stay on as board chair? Not pressured? They felt their very lives were in his hands. This is in fact why Ontario law does not allow the dual positions to be held by one person because there is a conflict of interest. You say "the employee was replaced and Ehatare continued to function normally. The lesson here is that no one is irreplaceable." Is that not a lesson that applies equally to Dr. Leesment? If an Estonian speaking doctor was truly so critical to the residents, why did he not stay on in that paid position? Why did he choose to hang on to the volunteer supposedly unpaid position on the board? Is he not replaceable, by another board member if no one else whereas not everyone can come up with a medical degree? Most volunteer Estonian institutions are crying out for new blood. Why does the Ehatare Board, especially its chairman keep conveying the message that diaster will befall if he is replaced (and by younger working people)? This message of indispensability included denigrating well meaning people who were willing to put in countless hours of volunteer work and NOT out of revenge or to support the dismissed employee which became a side issue. The issue became a lack of confidence that the Board was doing the best job possible when people turned their attention to its various doings.
Re your point #3 I know for a fact that the proposal for mediation between board and employee was made at the first general meeting shortly after the dismissal. The advisability of avoiding court costs and bad blood was specifically mentioned. You should but may not find it in the minutes as those are Board generated. Those minutes were not made available at the next general meeting a year later. People who expressed surprise at no minutes being circulated were cavalierly instructed to go from Eesti Maja where the meeting was held to read them in the Ehatare office. In fact, Robert's rules were not followed in many other ways as well, leaving an amateurish impression. At the second meeting the Board had hired a (presumably expensive lawyer) who kept repeating words to the effect that the things people were requesting were not "strictly legally required". Lack of traditional meeting procedures and transparency tend to make people feel something is being hidden.
Re #6, calling the new candidates' qualifications flimsy is a double standard since the qualifications of many serving board members were no better except for having served on the board previously.
Finally, there has been plenty of mud flung two ways. Even your own terms "busybody" and "vigilantes" in an otherwise civil comment are regrettable.
In answer to the person who started their comment: "I don't doubt that you mean well", let me say that I almost felt the same about you until I got to the word "vigiliantes". It is you who may be misinformed including the idea that a previously satisfactory amployee can be dismissed "without cause" with no legal repercussions. Indeed, even if the employee is not fired but their duties changed in a negative way, that may be termed "constructive dismissal" and again, is a risky venture for an employer to undertake without an ironclad case as Employment Law often sides with employees.
Re your points #2 and #5 you seem unaware of pressure exerted on Ehatare residents in the opposite direction by the Board and its supporters including proxy voters who did not even attend the general meeting. How do you think elderly residents feel when the man ultimately responsible for their medical care expresses his determination to stay on as board chair? Not pressured? They felt their very lives were in his hands. This is in fact why Ontario law does not allow the dual positions to be held by one person because there is a conflict of interest. You say "the employee was replaced and Ehatare continued to function normally. The lesson here is that no one is irreplaceable." Is that not a lesson that applies equally to Dr. Leesment? If an Estonian speaking doctor was truly so critical to the residents, why did he not stay on in that paid position? Why did he choose to hang on to the volunteer supposedly unpaid position on the board? Is he not replaceable, by another board member if no one else whereas not everyone can come up with a medical degree? Most volunteer Estonian institutions are crying out for new blood. Why does the Ehatare Board, especially its chairman keep conveying the message that diaster will befall if he is replaced (and by younger working people)? This message of indispensability included denigrating well meaning people who were willing to put in countless hours of volunteer work and NOT out of revenge or to support the dismissed employee which became a side issue. The issue became a lack of confidence that the Board was doing the best job possible when people turned their attention to its various doings.
Re your point #3 I know for a fact that the proposal for mediation between board and employee was made at the first general meeting shortly after the dismissal. The advisability of avoiding court costs and bad blood was specifically mentioned. You should but may not find it in the minutes as those are Board generated. Those minutes were not made available at the next general meeting a year later. People who expressed surprise at no minutes being circulated were cavalierly instructed to go from Eesti Maja where the meeting was held to read them in the Ehatare office. In fact, Robert's rules were not followed in many other ways as well, leaving an amateurish impression. At the second meeting the Board had hired a (presumably expensive lawyer) who kept repeating words to the effect that the things people were requesting were not "strictly legally required". Lack of traditional meeting procedures and transparency tend to make people feel something is being hidden.
Re #6, calling the new candidates' qualifications flimsy is a double standard since the qualifications of many serving board members were no better except for having served on the board previously.
Finally, there has been plenty of mud flung two ways. Even your own terms "busybody" and "vigilantes" in an otherwise civil comment are regrettable.
An employee of Ehatare loses her job.
The following day, a petition appears on the Internet. Soon, protests from Florida, Norway to Estonia pour in.
Most of those people had never even heard of Ehatare.
The organizer is a friend of the employee unconnected to Ehatare, but; she should not be called a "busybody".
Then, at a family wedding she tried to recruit enough new members, to out-vote family members, to topple the Board and lynch the Administrator, but; she should not be called a "vigilante".
Please, Smartypants, tell us what she should be called!
You are correct in stating that I'm unaware of pressure exerted on Ehatare residents by the Board. With a parent in residence, I'd sure like to know. Can you provide some info?
The following day, a petition appears on the Internet. Soon, protests from Florida, Norway to Estonia pour in.
Most of those people had never even heard of Ehatare.
The organizer is a friend of the employee unconnected to Ehatare, but; she should not be called a "busybody".
Then, at a family wedding she tried to recruit enough new members, to out-vote family members, to topple the Board and lynch the Administrator, but; she should not be called a "vigilante".
Please, Smartypants, tell us what she should be called!
You are correct in stating that I'm unaware of pressure exerted on Ehatare residents by the Board. With a parent in residence, I'd sure like to know. Can you provide some info?
Please visit Ehatare sometime!
See how easy it is to communicate with an elderly resident with some hearing loss and the beginnings of dementia.
Then try to explain how an Estonian-speaking service-provider is unnecessary.
You must lack a conscience.
See how easy it is to communicate with an elderly resident with some hearing loss and the beginnings of dementia.
Then try to explain how an Estonian-speaking service-provider is unnecessary.
You must lack a conscience.
Perhaps you missed this from an earlier post? I think you should answer this question if you expect your comment to be taken seriously.
"If an Estonian speaking doctor was truly so critical to the residents, why did he not stay on in that paid position? Why did he choose to hang on to the volunteer supposedly unpaid position on the board?"
"If an Estonian speaking doctor was truly so critical to the residents, why did he not stay on in that paid position? Why did he choose to hang on to the volunteer supposedly unpaid position on the board?"
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Rahu, ainult rahu (07:09), rahu (08:41)
At a meeting with family members, Dr. Leesment explained that he is retiring and closing his medical practice. That includes giving up his medical license.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Dear Lootus (10:08)
The allegation that Dr. Leesment was paid for his work on the Board arose more than a year ago.
It was aired and cleared.
A "busybody" and "vigilante" repeated that allegation afterwards, in private, but; didn't dare do so in public when challenged. That spoke volumes.
If such people don't wish to be slapped with a slander suit, they shouldn't fall on their knees and beg for one.
It was aired and cleared.
A "busybody" and "vigilante" repeated that allegation afterwards, in private, but; didn't dare do so in public when challenged. That spoke volumes.
If such people don't wish to be slapped with a slander suit, they shouldn't fall on their knees and beg for one.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Dear Lootus (10:08), Dear Lootus (10:50)
If Dr. Leesment retired, then why are others being accused of being responsible for denying Ehatare residents of estonian speaking healthcare?
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Rahu, ainult rahu (07:09), rahu (08:41), Answer this (10:40)
For many years, Dr Leesment's dual role was a tolerated deviation, by both our community and the Ministry of Health, while an Estonian-speaking replacement was sought.
This was documented at a public meeting last year, in minute detail. (Thanks! Lea Kõiv.)
The tolerance evaporated after the "vigilantes" attacked. With no loved ones in Ehatare, they could afford to; and the Ministry had no measure of the importance of Estonian language medical service there.
It's actually not my place to defend Ehatare.
I'm not privy to all of the information, but; I'm compelled by concern for the welfare of my mother and her co-residents.
After the outstanding lawsuit is settled, I hope that the Board will reveal what the "vigilantes" have done; and I dearly hope that our community newspapers will report it, in detail! Some people, like our non-investigative reporter Eerik Purje, should then be ashamed at the ease with which he was duped. In fact, many decent Estonians, in choirs, from Toronto to Estonia, should be angry, as victims of unconscionable mendacity.
If they have a conscience, then the "vigilantes" should be reluctant to show their faces among the rest of us.
This was documented at a public meeting last year, in minute detail. (Thanks! Lea Kõiv.)
The tolerance evaporated after the "vigilantes" attacked. With no loved ones in Ehatare, they could afford to; and the Ministry had no measure of the importance of Estonian language medical service there.
It's actually not my place to defend Ehatare.
I'm not privy to all of the information, but; I'm compelled by concern for the welfare of my mother and her co-residents.
After the outstanding lawsuit is settled, I hope that the Board will reveal what the "vigilantes" have done; and I dearly hope that our community newspapers will report it, in detail! Some people, like our non-investigative reporter Eerik Purje, should then be ashamed at the ease with which he was duped. In fact, many decent Estonians, in choirs, from Toronto to Estonia, should be angry, as victims of unconscionable mendacity.
If they have a conscience, then the "vigilantes" should be reluctant to show their faces among the rest of us.
No one seems to be disputing the fact that Dr. Leesment retired, that that is the reason Ehatare residents no longer have Estonian care.
This would seem to indicate that his "dual role" has nothing to do with it.
So again, why is it fair to accuse "vigilantes" of "lacking a conscience" as if it was their fault that there is no more estonian health care there?
I don't really know what happened (but must admit, my curiosity is peaked) but I will say one thing for "Lootus" - he/she seems to be able to discuss this issue without being offensive which can't be said for the other side judging by the comments here. Perhaps the whole thing has gotten ugly beyond return but perhaps it's not too late to return some common courtesy to this discussion?
You say that:
"After the outstanding lawsuit is settled, I hope that the Board will reveal what the "vigilantes" have done".
Perhaps is would be more impartial to say that you hope that the truth comes out?
It sounds like you're assuming that Ehatare wins this lawsuit. Why is that? You say you aren't privy to all the information yet you have no problem using the term "vigilantes" and express hope that "what they have done" will be revealed. This sounds very much like someone who has made up his/her mind.
This would seem to indicate that his "dual role" has nothing to do with it.
So again, why is it fair to accuse "vigilantes" of "lacking a conscience" as if it was their fault that there is no more estonian health care there?
I don't really know what happened (but must admit, my curiosity is peaked) but I will say one thing for "Lootus" - he/she seems to be able to discuss this issue without being offensive which can't be said for the other side judging by the comments here. Perhaps the whole thing has gotten ugly beyond return but perhaps it's not too late to return some common courtesy to this discussion?
You say that:
"After the outstanding lawsuit is settled, I hope that the Board will reveal what the "vigilantes" have done".
Perhaps is would be more impartial to say that you hope that the truth comes out?
It sounds like you're assuming that Ehatare wins this lawsuit. Why is that? You say you aren't privy to all the information yet you have no problem using the term "vigilantes" and express hope that "what they have done" will be revealed. This sounds very much like someone who has made up his/her mind.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Rahu, ainult rahu (07:09), rahu (08:41), Answer this (10:40), Question (12:05)
I have stayed on the sidelines of this fratricidal (yes, fratricide includes killing one's sister) thread.
In the interests of introducing a modicum of levity, rahu, aniult rahu wrote: [i]I don't really know what happened (but must admit, my curiosity is peaked) but I...[i]
Now I have made a number of grammatical errors in my posts, but this one really piqued my curiosity.
In the interests of introducing a modicum of levity, rahu, aniult rahu wrote: [i]I don't really know what happened (but must admit, my curiosity is peaked) but I...[i]
Now I have made a number of grammatical errors in my posts, but this one really piqued my curiosity.
As long as we're nitpicking ...
1)
If you are going to highlight your own text in bold, you might want to first check your spelling.
2)
"In the interests of ..." - I believe the phrase you are looking for is "In the interest of ...".
1)
If you are going to highlight your own text in bold, you might want to first check your spelling.
2)
"In the interests of ..." - I believe the phrase you are looking for is "In the interest of ...".
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Rahu, ainult rahu (07:09), rahu (08:41), Answer this (10:40), Question (12:05), answer only begets more Q's (13:51), Thank you! (06:59)
'Clarity' might be served by more than one interest. In that case you're mistaken.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: busybody & vigilante (09:14)
"Levity" might be served by more than one interest.
In that case you're mistaken.
In that case you're mistaken.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: busybody & vigilante (09:14), to Glass houses ... (14:21)
As a non-Torontonian, and simply as an onlooker, the topic is Eesti Maja and not Ehatare. Most importantly, with the tone of this 'discussion', if you can call it that, Estonian community in Toronto will implode and no one wins.
People obviously have too much time on their hands and nothing constructive to do. get a life.
People obviously have too much time on their hands and nothing constructive to do. get a life.
It's easy for you to say: Get a life!
You don't have a parent in Ehatare.
You don't have a parent in Ehatare.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: partial answer (13:37)
For your contribution. You are awesome!
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Rahu, ainult rahu (07:09), rahu (08:41), Answer this (10:40), Question (12:05), answer only begets more Q's (13:51)
A "busybody" meddles in the business of others.
A "vigilante" takes the law into their own hands.
We've seen both in the assault on Ehatare.
The opening salvo took the appearance of the world wide petition. My name appeared there, without my knowledge or consent. I wonder if that's also true of the people in Florida, Norway and Estonia who, no doubt, are really worried about far-off Ehatare.
A friend in Estonia signed the petition because a "busybody" told her that the former employee is the victim of a tyrant with an irrational grudge. Then she asked Veljo Tormis to sign, which he did. I wonder if Tormis has ever heard of Ehatare?
A "busybody" drove from Toronto, to our choir practice in Hamilton, to solicit signatures for the petition. Most of us went along with it because the pep-talk was pretty good and it seemed harmless. (Later, we learned that it was mostly b.s.)
A "vigilante" returned, a year later, with the plan of inciting a near-riot at the AGM. This time, the tone was fanatical and it backfired, as most of us responded with skepticism and reserve.
The "busybody" and "vigilante" has no real connection to Ehatare.
Some here, have objected to the use of "busybody" and "vigilante", but; they couldn't propose a plausible alternative. So, what can we do?
A "vigilante" takes the law into their own hands.
We've seen both in the assault on Ehatare.
The opening salvo took the appearance of the world wide petition. My name appeared there, without my knowledge or consent. I wonder if that's also true of the people in Florida, Norway and Estonia who, no doubt, are really worried about far-off Ehatare.
A friend in Estonia signed the petition because a "busybody" told her that the former employee is the victim of a tyrant with an irrational grudge. Then she asked Veljo Tormis to sign, which he did. I wonder if Tormis has ever heard of Ehatare?
A "busybody" drove from Toronto, to our choir practice in Hamilton, to solicit signatures for the petition. Most of us went along with it because the pep-talk was pretty good and it seemed harmless. (Later, we learned that it was mostly b.s.)
A "vigilante" returned, a year later, with the plan of inciting a near-riot at the AGM. This time, the tone was fanatical and it backfired, as most of us responded with skepticism and reserve.
The "busybody" and "vigilante" has no real connection to Ehatare.
Some here, have objected to the use of "busybody" and "vigilante", but; they couldn't propose a plausible alternative. So, what can we do?
Thanks to the individual writing under the identifiers “to Glass houses ... 24 Sep 2013 14:21” and “sorry 24 Sep 2013 15:08”.
While I appreciate the support, it wasn’t necessary. I believe others understand that [i]“In the interests of”[i] and [i]“In the interest of”[i] are synonymous phrases, viz. both are correct.
“Rahu, ainult rahu” is prolific and should consider writing under his/her own name or at least sticking to a single pseudonym. As it stands, “Rahu…” has written in this thread under seven — yes 7! — different names: [i]Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Rahu, ainult rahu (07:09), rahu (08:41), Answer this (10:40), Question (12:05), answer only begets more Q's (13:51), Thank you! (06:59), Glass houses and stones (12:48)[i]
While I appreciate the support, it wasn’t necessary. I believe others understand that [i]“In the interests of”[i] and [i]“In the interest of”[i] are synonymous phrases, viz. both are correct.
“Rahu, ainult rahu” is prolific and should consider writing under his/her own name or at least sticking to a single pseudonym. As it stands, “Rahu…” has written in this thread under seven — yes 7! — different names: [i]Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Rahu, ainult rahu (07:09), rahu (08:41), Answer this (10:40), Question (12:05), answer only begets more Q's (13:51), Thank you! (06:59), Glass houses and stones (12:48)[i]
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Toomas Merilo (21:14)
Lgp. T.Merilo . Before u shoot your mouth off (Happens very often) , about a person writing comments under various names, from the same IP , consider the FACT that it does not have to be the same person. Using WIFI and/or public computers in libraries, etc. will leave that impression to the uninformed.
Going back to the topic of the Estonian House...
I just realized today why the Estonian House is not working for us anymore.
Today, the Estonian House is a place that rents out rooms and halls. It is no longer a true community centre where Estonians go because they have something to offer the community (yes, we have the Estonian schools, kindergarten-- actually the reason why the old school house was bought in the first place...but there could be so much more!).
What do I mean? Just look at other vibrant community centres. A terrific example is the Jewish center on the conner of Bloor W and Spadina (www.milesnadaljcc.ca).
If you look at the titles of the classes and activities offered, it starts to dawn on you that these people have been motivated to offered the centre some wonderful activities from pottery, to poetry classes, to fitness programs...the list is long and the array is amazing. I want this for the Estonian community in Toronto. I don't see this happening in the present tired and dilapidated building.
I want something better for our community! Don't you?
I just realized today why the Estonian House is not working for us anymore.
Today, the Estonian House is a place that rents out rooms and halls. It is no longer a true community centre where Estonians go because they have something to offer the community (yes, we have the Estonian schools, kindergarten-- actually the reason why the old school house was bought in the first place...but there could be so much more!).
What do I mean? Just look at other vibrant community centres. A terrific example is the Jewish center on the conner of Bloor W and Spadina (www.milesnadaljcc.ca).
If you look at the titles of the classes and activities offered, it starts to dawn on you that these people have been motivated to offered the centre some wonderful activities from pottery, to poetry classes, to fitness programs...the list is long and the array is amazing. I want this for the Estonian community in Toronto. I don't see this happening in the present tired and dilapidated building.
I want something better for our community! Don't you?
I think that in principle the idea is wonderful but comes at least 20-30 years too late. It seems to me that our community is simply too small for what you describe.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Rahu, ainult rahu (07:09), rahu (08:41), Answer this (10:40), Question (12:05), answer only begets more Q's (13:51), Thank you! (06:59), Glass houses and stones (12:48)
Someone earlier said that it is well known who holds most of the shares. I have no idea, could someone enlighten me?
The future of EM has been an issue for years now. Can anyone summarize where we're at at the moment? All I have read is that there are studies being done etc. but what are the results? Is a decision forthcoming?
The possibilities I have heard are some Don Mills-Eglinton location, someone earlier suggested a location in the 905 area, Tartu College I have heard is an option and tearing down EM and building something in it's place is another. And then, some want to keep going the way we are now but I'm not sure that's viable for much longer.
Is anyone able to tell me what options are in fact being considered and what the pros and cons are of said options?
Someone earlier also said that Tartu College would be "difficult" because it is owned by the govt of Ontario. Does difficult mean undoable? Without knowing a ton of details that option (if doable) still sounds good mainly because the idea of consolidating two organizations into one seems practical. Let's face it, our numbers are dwindling and that process in speeding up, will never be reversed and the Esto society here is dying anyway, it's just a question of how many more years do we have and personally I hope it's still quite a few. How long can we have Tartu College, EM, Joekaaru, Seedrioru, KJ etc. Some consolidation seems inevitable. We had 2 Esto papers which merged into 1. Is there anyone that would say now that that was not a smart move?
Anyhow, if anyone could provide an overview of the facts in question, I would be grateful.
Toomas, despite your at times prickliness you are I believe somewhat knowledgeable about issues in our community, perhaps you can add something of substance here instead of being our resident spell-checker? I would be surprised if I was the only one who would be interested in some more information on this subject.
The future of EM has been an issue for years now. Can anyone summarize where we're at at the moment? All I have read is that there are studies being done etc. but what are the results? Is a decision forthcoming?
The possibilities I have heard are some Don Mills-Eglinton location, someone earlier suggested a location in the 905 area, Tartu College I have heard is an option and tearing down EM and building something in it's place is another. And then, some want to keep going the way we are now but I'm not sure that's viable for much longer.
Is anyone able to tell me what options are in fact being considered and what the pros and cons are of said options?
Someone earlier also said that Tartu College would be "difficult" because it is owned by the govt of Ontario. Does difficult mean undoable? Without knowing a ton of details that option (if doable) still sounds good mainly because the idea of consolidating two organizations into one seems practical. Let's face it, our numbers are dwindling and that process in speeding up, will never be reversed and the Esto society here is dying anyway, it's just a question of how many more years do we have and personally I hope it's still quite a few. How long can we have Tartu College, EM, Joekaaru, Seedrioru, KJ etc. Some consolidation seems inevitable. We had 2 Esto papers which merged into 1. Is there anyone that would say now that that was not a smart move?
Anyhow, if anyone could provide an overview of the facts in question, I would be grateful.
Toomas, despite your at times prickliness you are I believe somewhat knowledgeable about issues in our community, perhaps you can add something of substance here instead of being our resident spell-checker? I would be surprised if I was the only one who would be interested in some more information on this subject.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Rahu, ainult rahu (07:09), rahu (08:41), Answer this (10:40), Question (12:05), answer only begets more Q's (13:51), Thank you! (06:59), Glass houses and stones (12:48), enlightened (07:02)
The largest EM shareholders are the bank and the former EM manager. Of course, you can have the shares, but if you have nobody who would put up the money, they are worthless.
The RFP process is still going on, no idea how long this is going to take.
The RFP process is still going on, no idea how long this is going to take.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Enlightened one ;) (23:25)
The former TEM manager may have some small number of personal shares.
He did however actively seek out proxies from organisations with which he was affiliated (Toronto Eesti Selts having the largest "chunk" of TEM shares). So during past TEM AGMs he did represent a significant block of votes.
He did however actively seek out proxies from organisations with which he was affiliated (Toronto Eesti Selts having the largest "chunk" of TEM shares). So during past TEM AGMs he did represent a significant block of votes.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Toomas Merilo (21:14), Toomas Merilo (21:57)
Kommentaarid sellele artiklile on suletud.