Collaborators and victims
Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
VanemadUuemad
Tiritamm13 Jan 2006 13:04
To its credit, the Estonian Central Council went to a considerable effort to perform "a moral autopsy" on events which occurred more than sixty years ago. I read the series, with care. I have no grounds to disagree with anything that I read there, yet, I was so disappointed that so much work ended so inconclusively. Surely, there must be a bit more to the story than what we got.

I'm pained by the sight of unresolved war-crimes in Estonia, (both Nazi and Communist), because, in an unresolved crime, everyone is a suspect. We can't turn our backs on it and pretend that nothing ever happened because that only makes it worse -- innocents live under suspicion and we're obliged to witness phoney ceremonies where the former communist and current President of Estonia paases out medals of honour to his former enemies and allies alike.

An honest moral accounting and catharsis would be a welcome final act to Estonia's liberation drama.

"The past is history and the future's a mystery. All that we have is 'now' and that's why it's called it 'the present'."
an old Russian proverb...13 Jan 2006 15:11
If you dwell on the past, you'll lose an eye.
If you forget the past, you'll lose both eyes.
just one reader15 Jan 2006 20:05
I don't mind the "political". It's the "misleading" that I'd like to see you avoid.
You have written some good articles in the past and I'll bet that you can do the same in future. I wouldn't mind if you had a go at clarifying this business of historical guilt. I slogged my way though "Estonians trapped in stereotypes" and now I know how Sysphus feels after rolling his rock up the hill four times. I'm too tired to start on the other report.
Maxim17 Jan 2006 05:32
Hopefully we won't run the same number of opinions as the one before Christmas-it almost made it to 100. If you people want to continue flirting with your Nazi past, then do so at your own peril. The fact is that no-one demanded an equivalent to the Nuremburg trials for the USSR, because there was a pretty unanimous view at the time that in the end, the Soviets were indeed less an evil than the Nazis. Since any kind of history limits itself to layman's terms, it will continue to be very difficult trying to put the case the other way round, if indeed that is at all possible. However, these sorts of discussions are nothing more than squaring off history at some point; reality takes a different shape and form-globalisation is one of the fastest ways of helping the politically immoral to keep the higher moral ground, since it excuses the sins of the past.
to maxim17 Jan 2006 06:34
the western allies did not want to examine their eastern partner too closely because then the horrors that they created would also be subject to far greater scrutiny, i.e. dresden, berlin, hiroshima, nagasaki, refugee ships on the baltic, etc ... now globalization via 'democracy' towards a one world government ruled by the financial elite, is a whole 'nother story
to - Maxim17 Jan 2006 08:53
"If you people want to continue flirting with your Nazi past, then do so at your own peril."

What Nazi past, Maxim? And what peril? Apart from you yapping at us like a little dog.
to - that nut17 Jan 2006 09:10
So you think the Soviets were less evil than the Nazis. By what measure? We base our judgment on the respective piles of corpses that they created. While I'm mildly curious at how you came to your own view, I'd rather you didn't respond. There's no need for it actually -- we already have plenty of evidence that you have something seriously wrong with you.
S.O.S17 Jan 2006 09:28
Is there no one out there among the readership of Eesti Elu that can identify our scourge, Maxim? He was booted out of Viroonia. Surely someone from their ranks can give us his name.
I'm going to Estonia this summer and am prepared to meet with him face-to-face to persuade him to stop hazing us. If a face-to-face meeting is insufficient, then I'll try a boot-to-ass meeting.
Maxim17 Jan 2006 11:12
If you read my comment carefully, then I deduce my point from the fact that THE REST OF THE WORLD has taken on that view; I have done nothing to promote that view nor do I agree with it-but it is an insurpassable fact of history, because generally educational levels after the 1960's plummeted to an all-time low, and the left-wing thinkers filled the ranks of the media in nearly every country on the face of the earth. Only dreary shallowness remained on the face of the waters, and it has continued to decline to this day. However, to introduce another angle on the picture is to do so purely from hindsight. There were enough opportunities at the time to square off history, but the leading political lights saw the Nazis as being an easier- or less formidable- target than the Soviets. I am also of the opinion that there were a number of common interests between the Superpowers of the time, which put the brakes on going the full length, and handing over "a shopping list of sins" committed by the Soviets.
To those who want to have my head, I only have this to say; I don't recall ever attacking you personally or otherwise, and I would prefer it very much if you stuck to the subject of providing opinions, rather than verbally abusing me or threatening to attack me physicallywhen you next come to visit the land of your forefathers. That only goes to show how baseless your own intellectual curiosity is, since you refuse to bend to anything that is remotely outside of your long ago used-by date. Let's let courtesy be our first and only common ground of contact in future.
Anonymous17 Jan 2006 15:34
Dear Maxim,

You wish to use this space as your personal bully-pulpit. And I can see that you're genuinely perplexed when we fail to appreciate your teaching and scolding. Correct me if I'm wrong -- I certainly didn't need to say that -- but we don't believe that you're qualified for the job. No doubt, that comes as a shock.

To illustrate this point, let's have a look at what you've just written.

MAXIM: If you read my comment carefully, then I 'deduce' [surely, you mean 'derive'] my point from the fact that THE REST OF THE WORLD has taken on that view; I have done nothing to promote that view nor do I agree with it-but it is an 'insurpassable fact of history' [the proper spelling is 'unsurpassable', it's also an inappropriate use of the word. Facts are unsurpassable just as they're inedible], because 'generally' [redundant] educational levels after the 1960's plummeted to an all-time low, and 'the' [redundant] left-wing thinkers filled the ranks of the media in nearly every country 'on the face of the earth' [you imply that there are countries elsewhere]. 'Only dreary shallowness remained on the face of the waters' [what does this mean?], and 'it' [what? 'dreary shallowness' or 'waters'?] has continued to decline to this day. However, to introduce another angle on 'the picture' [which picture?] is 'to do so purely from hindsight' [are you telling us that history happened in the past?]. There were enough opportunities 'at the time' [when?] 'to square off history' [what do you mean?], but 'the leading political lights' [be specific] saw the Nazis as being an easier- or less formidable- target than the Soviets. I am also of the opinion that there were 'a number of common interests between the Superpowers' [give an example] of the time, which put 'the brakes on going the full length' [too ambiguous], and handing over '"a shopping list of sins"' [ why not just a list?] committed by the Soviets.
To those who want to 'have my head' ['be quiet' would be more accurate], I only have this to say; 'I don't recall ever attacking you personally' [you attack us -- väliseestlased -- regularly, even here] or otherwise, and I would prefer it very much if you stuck to the subject of providing opinions, rather than verbally abusing me or threatening to attack me physicallywhen you next come to visit the land of your forefathers. 'That only goes to show how baseless your own intellectual curiosity is' [non sequitur], since you refuse to bend to 'anything that is remotely outside of your long ago used-by date' [what does this mean?]. 'Let's let courtesy be our first and only common ground of contact in future' [for that, you'll have to stop lecturing and scolding us].

Do you get the idea, Maxim?
to - maxim17 Jan 2006 17:10
Did you graduate after the '60's when educational standards plummeted? Perhaps I should ask, 'Did you graduate?'
to - Maxim, esq.17 Jan 2006 18:19
You saw the light and moved to Estonia and, since, you have been as mad as a junk-yard dog because the rest of us haven't followed you.

For a year, you've barked at us incessantly. You gnaw mistaken ideas like a dog with a bone, all the while, showing your disdain for us.

All of this has provoked a reaction, perhaps a bit rougher than you expected, so, now you want to change the rules. From now on, you suggest we be courteous.

I suppose that we could respond to you courteously. We could say, for example, "I hope that this doesn't distress you, Maxim, but I must be quite frank and say that your most recent incoherent harangue that asserts falsehoods and insults us was unappreciated. We'll not welcome any more of that."

I wonder how you plan to fulfill your end of the bargain? How is it possible to hector [look it up in the dictionary] and goad people courteously?
to - maxim17 Jan 2006 19:30
You say that we, Estonians in Canada, are "continuing to flirt with our Nazi past". Is that a fact? Then why say it? Do you really deserve a courteous response to it? Why?

Is psychiatric service available in Estonia?
2_Maxi17 Jan 2006 19:58
If you want to continue flirting with your Russian past, then do so at your own peril.
Maxim17 Jan 2006 23:09
I think all these comments point to only one thing; and that is - Maxim; you're not wanted here or anywhere else where you can make a comment about anything!! I appreciate your openness with regard to the hatred continuously expressed against me, and I don't think I'll bother making any further comments on this subject. It seems perfectly clear that your organisations continue to be filled with gun-wielding, totalitarian minded, stark-raving mad people who have never lent support for dissidents of any kind (though they would claim to the death that this is far from being the case), but instead have spent their lives muzzling any alternatives to what they believe to be in the best Estonian interest, which have of late included me and "Peter". Needless to say, I have never understood why they have only limited themselves to correcting my English, and haven't had the will to express any kind of political point of view which could create the slightest interest. They are boring, dry individuals with nothing better to do than wield the big stick against anyone whose English is not on par with theirs. For this reason alone, I'd rather spend my time getting back to nourishing on some more interesting ideas-and for those people who have always (if silently) lent me their support, then I am sorry to say that I really don't see much point returning here to read anything further from me. Your dictators have won a hard-fought battle; and though I have always tried to be as enthusiastic and interesting as I can possibly be, there just doesn't seem to be any more reason to continue supporting your paper, with so many conservatively - minded commentators who have taken out a lifelong vengeance against me. To those who have quietly appreciated my points of view; I thank you very much. To my critics-I feel deeply sorry for you all...and hope that someday you'll come to see reason for what it really is-a tool to build a better foundation for ideas (sometimes including ideas other that your own). Many thanks-and better luck in the future to all.
Tõnu Jürvetson20 Jan 2006 11:50
It is amazing how few facts are known about the major genocides of the 20th century and who committed them. Here is a good source, one of many available on the Internet:

"Soviet Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1917" by R. J. Runnels

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkil...

lists the USSR genocide total as 62 million people:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkil...
USSR.TAB1A.GIF

lists the communist Chinese total as 35 million people

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkil...

lists the nazi German total as 21 million people

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkil...

breaks out the Jewish Holocaust as
5.3 million people

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkil...
HOLO.TAB1.GIF

The Holocaust was horrible, but the 5,3 nazi murders pale in comparison to the Sino Soviet communist total of 87 million people.

Runnels gives a detailed yearly analysis of his numbers and his sources.

All evil regimes are bad, but some are orders of magnitude worse. It's sad that that most of the world still believes "that the Soviets were less evil than the Nazis".

As professor O.W. Homes said: "Truth is Tough"



Tõnu Jürvetson20 Jan 2006 12:10
For some reason all the links I provided in my genocide e-mail don't work properly. Here is a link that opens the 62 million killed by the Soviets:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkil...

I tested it. It seems to work now.

Tõnu Jürvetson20 Jan 2006 12:11
For some reason all the links I provided in my genocide e-mail don't work properly. Here is a link that opens the 62 million killed by the Soviets data:

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkil...

I tested it. It seems to work now.

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