Estonian language – factors governing usage, global recognition and loss
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international observer27 Jan 2011 04:01
Estophile27 Jan 2011 07:20
You've touched upon everything but the essential question -- Does the Estonian language have any intrinsic value?
If it does, what measures should be adopted to protect or enhance it?
maret27 Jan 2011 15:58
This is an interesting question for Estonian writers, theatre directors and others who have creative and artistic works in the Estonian language. Does the Estonian language have any intrinsic value in their view? Do they feel that their jobs and creative endeavors are worth preserving?
Estophile to Maret27 Jan 2011 16:35
I don't believe that this is an open question for Estonian writers and the like. Their work is an affirmative answer in itself.
The question is unresolved in the heads of those among us, who boldly state that they are proud to be Estonian, but don't put any effort into improving their language skills.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Estophile (07:20)
maret28 Jan 2011 11:47
Regarding the question of whether specific languages have intrinsic value, the following website has a useful discussion on the definition of intrinsic value:
http://cnx.org/content/m12160/...
The intrinsic value of a language is easily answered after understanding the definition of this term.
To Estophile to Maret28 Jan 2011 03:56
Estophile to Maret has hit the nail on the head. Both aspects of language preservation are important. But we as a "community" abroad have yet to resolve the painful, and to some, an unsolvable problem, of how to make our community welcoming and inclusive, without emphasizing the crucial importance of language, the real glue that holds us together and gives us a common identity. Being blood sausage and sauerkraut Estonians, or getting a kick out of visiting the quaint homeland of our grandparents simply is not enough. Culture is actually language and to pretend otherwise is foolish.
Peter28 Jan 2011 14:38
An intresting article that raises many good points. We could be philosophical about the value of any language and one could ask why Americans do not abandon English and join the majority of countries in North And South America by adopting Spanish?
In a recent discussion about Obama's support for the international synthetic language Esperanto, the point was brought up that the international business community's support of English makes no financial sense since so much time is wasted in school learning English when fluency in Esperanto can be aquired in a fraction of the time and at much less expense.
The fastest growing languages on this planet are now Spanish, Hindi and Mandarin Chinese. The percentage of native English-speakers is actually declining compared to these and some other languages. When America's status in the world declines, English could decline as a lingua franca as rapidly as did French, German and Dutch.
One point that I would like to bring up is that a minority language can survive and prosper as long as the community of speakers is proud of the fact that they speak that language and sees the language as prestigious. If a language is seen as being associated with backwardness and poverty, that language will soon die. Such has been the case of many minority languages in North America.
Unlike English-speakers, we Estonian-speakers see our language as part of a culture that has been passed on to us by many generations of ancestors. English is just a tool of communication that could easily be replaced and most people would really not care since it has little meaning to them.
to Peter28 Jan 2011 19:58
You pack a lot of silliness into a small space.

"Unlike English-speakers, we Estonian-speakers see our language as part of a culture that has been passed on to us by many generations of ancestors."

What nonsense! In 1800, Estonians were illiterate. All of them.

"English is just a tool of communication that could easily be replaced and most people would really not care since it has little meaning to them."

Philistines like you may not care, but cultured people everywhere would grieve at the loss of Shakespeare, et.al. What would Esperanto give us in its stead? Almost nothing, and saying that it's easy to learn only reveals your ignorance.

Instead of shooting your mouth off here, why don't you study Esperanto. When you're done, translate your favourite book (Mein Kampf). That should keep you out of trouble for a while.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Estophile (07:20), Estophile to Maret (16:35)
to to28 Jan 2011 21:37
if you have an itch, just scratch it
mth30 Jan 2011 16:09
While a fair number of us appreciate our Estonian language skills and the ability to read so many interesting and valuable Estonian language books, we understand that translations are needed for the rest of us. With this in mind, Amazon.com has a new programme for World Literature in Translation. They intend to translate non-English language books and use customer feedback and other data from Amazon sites to identify exceptional works that deserve a wider, global audience. It would be great to have some Estonian language books high on their list. Jaan Kross, the Estonian author nominated several times for the Nobel Prize in Literature is one that comes to mind. Some of his books including “Jaan Kross: Kallid kaasteelised I ja II” have not been translated into English yet.
See: Amazon crossing http://www.amazon.com/gp/featu...
Peter31 Jan 2011 15:04
Estonians illiterate? The literacy levels in Estonia and other Northern European countries in the 1800s were amongst the highest in Europe, mainly because in order to get married, you had to be confirmed by the Lutheran church and one of the requirements was to be able to read the Bible and hymn books.
I guess you are also not aware that Hitler banned the use and teaching of Esperanto because the language's creator, Dr. Zamenhof, was Jewish.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Peter (14:38)
Peter can't read!31 Jan 2011 15:36
I wrote, "In 1800, Estonians were illiterate. All of them."

Literacy came to the Estonians in the mid-1800's.

By 1900, the literacy rate was 97%. It could have been higher, but for Peter's forefathers,
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Estophile (07:20), Estophile to Maret (16:35), to Peter (19:58)
Alex31 Jan 2011 16:15
All Estonians were illiterate in 1800 ? Who told you that nonsense? According to Vikipeedia article Köstrikool, peasant schools (köstrikoolid) were re-opened in most of Estonian and Livonian parishes in the mid-18th century. So in year 1800, Estonia had tens of working schools for Estonians! Originally were they were founded by B.G. Forselius during Swedish time, who took Ignatsi Jaak from Kambia to read to the king of Sweden in 1686.
to Alex31 Jan 2011 17:47
Serfdom (pärisorjus) was abolished in Estonia in 1815. Until then, Estonians were tied to the manor estates of the Baltic Barons, not unlike slaves.
After 1815, they were allowed to move off the estates, acquire land, practice a trade and move to towns inhabited by German-speakers. Yes, there were schools in town, but none of them, Estonian.
Literacy among Estonians developed after serfdom was abolished. It's a fascinating story -- in the span of 100 years, illiterate, landless Estonians developed into a modern European nation like any other.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Estophile (07:20), Estophile to Maret (16:35), to Peter (19:58), Peter can't read! (15:36)
to Alex31 Jan 2011 17:59
When Ignatsi Jaak read to the King of Sweden in 1686, what language did he use? Certainly not Estonian.
The first Estonian book was a translation of the Bible. It appeared in 1739.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Estophile (07:20), Estophile to Maret (16:35), to Peter (19:58), Peter can't read! (15:36), to Alex (17:47)
Alex31 Jan 2011 18:21
You made the absurd claim that ALL Estonians were illiterate 1800, I am disputing it and now you are trying to change the subject to serfdom, language used by Ignatsi Jaak and Charlex XI of Sweden and other unrelated things. Nice try. I checked Estonia and Estonians of Toivo Raun, it says "only" 29 village schools remained in Estland (North Estonia) in 1800. Yes, Estonians were serfs. Yes they worked for manor estates. Btw, all manor estates (bigger than 5 plow-lands) had to found, guess what, a manor SCHOOL by decree of George Browne, Irish born Governor of Livonia in 1780. Slavery, schmavery, it was very different than in a Missisipi cotton plantation. And I am talking about literacy, not serfdom.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Alex (16:15)
Your knickers are in a knot!31 Jan 2011 19:59
Relax Alex!
You should know that a school in Estonia is not necessarily an Estonian school.
For example, our great poet, Lydia Koidula, graduated from a school in Pärnu, where the language of instruction was German. That's a German school in Estonia, something different from a school where the language of instruction is Estonian.
The idea that Estonian-language schooling was available, before 1815, is truly risible.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Estophile (07:20), Estophile to Maret (16:35), to Peter (19:58), Peter can't read! (15:36), to Alex (17:47), to Alex (17:59)
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