Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
VanemadUuemad
Peetri kirik needs to be saved for future generations of Estonians in Toronto and for all of the young families, children and older Estonians for whom there is no space or accessibility at the new centre.
It is extremely disappointing that our diverse Estonian community was not engaged by Peetri kirik to discuss the many opportunties and the possibilities to keep Peetri kirik for future generations.
This church was the first modern church in Toronto. It has great significance architecturally for Toronto and for Canada and has great value and significance for Estonians in Toronto.
It is unfortunate that so many problems have developed after the church decided to unite with the Estonian Church in Estonia. It seems that it was a poor idea to bring someone here from Estonia permanently. I am sure that this was at great expense and may have directly contributed to all of the financial problems.
The congregation has also made poor decisions that have not brought more members in. Services are being held in English, which makes one wonder why we have a minister here from Estonia. Naby have left Peetri kirik for services at other churches in Estonian.
Apparently, there has not been Sunday school for ten years! This is how churches attract more people to their services. Children come with their parents or grandparents. There were also no youth activities that most successful churches organize as part of their outreach work. It is to attract youth in a vulnerable age to interact with other young people in a safe environment. As far as I know, there have also been no additional seniors´events. I am unsure about outreach work to our more vulnerable members. This work is exactly the work that attracts donations from within the community and from outside in the wider community.
I strongly advise that the members of the executive stop the sale of Peetri kirik today. There should not be this critical discussion during the pandemic in the first place. There should be no voting on critical issues during the pandemic. Stress increases the risk of people becoming ill as our immune systems are weakened.
There is no need to rush to sell Peetri kirik, but we should be focused on keeping everyone in our community healthy and in as good spirits as is possible. Voting to sell or not sell the Peetri kirik is inappropriate. Our church should be focusing instead on how to help our seniors and not weaken them even more. These are the same people who gave us Peetri kirik.
The executive should take this opportunity when people are more reflective in our community and more grateful to our families and our upbringing to reach out to the Estonian community and actually discuss more options to keep Peetri kirik. The sale of Peetri kirik should not be considered as an option. Perhaps we should take this time to find new people who have fresh ideas and inspiration to reinvent the Peetri kirik. We will never have such an incredible example of Estonian architecture in Toronto. Peetri kirik is the greatest symbol for all of the wonderful accomplishments of Estonian war refugees in Toronto. It should remain here and for our future generations of Estonians and for Estonia.
After the sale of the Estonian House our Estonian community now needs to have much more space to replace all that is now lost. Guides and scouts, eesti lasteaed, eesti koolid and our seniors all used the Estonian House because of the great facilities it had to offer. Young parents and the guides and scouts community have suffered the most with the sale of the Estonian House.
This is your greatest opportunity to contribute to future Estonians in Toronto and all of our present young members. Please stop the sale of Peetri kirik and reach out to all of the Estonians in Toronto for whom Peetri kirik has a special place in their hearts.
We need to put the interests of our young children ahead of our own interest and needs. We need to understand the central role of churches in cultural communities in diaspora. This is very serious.
The sale of Peetri kirik would be the final blow for our community and will hasten its demise. We really need Peetri kirik and can work together to make a future possible.
May God forgive the executive of Peetri kirik for even thinking of having the vote to sell on Sunday. This is neither the time or the reason for having any members of our Estonian community risk their lives to attend a service or such an important meeting. We do not need to shorten any lives.
I strongly suggest that you cancel both the service and the meeting on Sunday. May God give us the strength and the direction to keep Peetri kirik for future generations.
It is extremely disappointing that our diverse Estonian community was not engaged by Peetri kirik to discuss the many opportunties and the possibilities to keep Peetri kirik for future generations.
This church was the first modern church in Toronto. It has great significance architecturally for Toronto and for Canada and has great value and significance for Estonians in Toronto.
It is unfortunate that so many problems have developed after the church decided to unite with the Estonian Church in Estonia. It seems that it was a poor idea to bring someone here from Estonia permanently. I am sure that this was at great expense and may have directly contributed to all of the financial problems.
The congregation has also made poor decisions that have not brought more members in. Services are being held in English, which makes one wonder why we have a minister here from Estonia. Naby have left Peetri kirik for services at other churches in Estonian.
Apparently, there has not been Sunday school for ten years! This is how churches attract more people to their services. Children come with their parents or grandparents. There were also no youth activities that most successful churches organize as part of their outreach work. It is to attract youth in a vulnerable age to interact with other young people in a safe environment. As far as I know, there have also been no additional seniors´events. I am unsure about outreach work to our more vulnerable members. This work is exactly the work that attracts donations from within the community and from outside in the wider community.
I strongly advise that the members of the executive stop the sale of Peetri kirik today. There should not be this critical discussion during the pandemic in the first place. There should be no voting on critical issues during the pandemic. Stress increases the risk of people becoming ill as our immune systems are weakened.
There is no need to rush to sell Peetri kirik, but we should be focused on keeping everyone in our community healthy and in as good spirits as is possible. Voting to sell or not sell the Peetri kirik is inappropriate. Our church should be focusing instead on how to help our seniors and not weaken them even more. These are the same people who gave us Peetri kirik.
The executive should take this opportunity when people are more reflective in our community and more grateful to our families and our upbringing to reach out to the Estonian community and actually discuss more options to keep Peetri kirik. The sale of Peetri kirik should not be considered as an option. Perhaps we should take this time to find new people who have fresh ideas and inspiration to reinvent the Peetri kirik. We will never have such an incredible example of Estonian architecture in Toronto. Peetri kirik is the greatest symbol for all of the wonderful accomplishments of Estonian war refugees in Toronto. It should remain here and for our future generations of Estonians and for Estonia.
After the sale of the Estonian House our Estonian community now needs to have much more space to replace all that is now lost. Guides and scouts, eesti lasteaed, eesti koolid and our seniors all used the Estonian House because of the great facilities it had to offer. Young parents and the guides and scouts community have suffered the most with the sale of the Estonian House.
This is your greatest opportunity to contribute to future Estonians in Toronto and all of our present young members. Please stop the sale of Peetri kirik and reach out to all of the Estonians in Toronto for whom Peetri kirik has a special place in their hearts.
We need to put the interests of our young children ahead of our own interest and needs. We need to understand the central role of churches in cultural communities in diaspora. This is very serious.
The sale of Peetri kirik would be the final blow for our community and will hasten its demise. We really need Peetri kirik and can work together to make a future possible.
May God forgive the executive of Peetri kirik for even thinking of having the vote to sell on Sunday. This is neither the time or the reason for having any members of our Estonian community risk their lives to attend a service or such an important meeting. We do not need to shorten any lives.
I strongly suggest that you cancel both the service and the meeting on Sunday. May God give us the strength and the direction to keep Peetri kirik for future generations.
26
10Excellent summary!
No voting of any kind should take place until the spring of 2021, when people will have had time to absorb the information provided, and have had a chance to discuss with other congregation members.
This current campaign for voting on September 27th is an undemocratic, communistic style 'rush job' with many long time St. Peter's members being deliberately sidelined from participating.
The opportunity which must be sized now is the coming together of the Toronto Estonian Peetri ja Vana Andrese Lutheran Congregations at St. Peteräs Church ... with a renewed unified purpose, name(?), minister and choir!
No voting of any kind should take place until the spring of 2021, when people will have had time to absorb the information provided, and have had a chance to discuss with other congregation members.
This current campaign for voting on September 27th is an undemocratic, communistic style 'rush job' with many long time St. Peter's members being deliberately sidelined from participating.
The opportunity which must be sized now is the coming together of the Toronto Estonian Peetri ja Vana Andrese Lutheran Congregations at St. Peteräs Church ... with a renewed unified purpose, name(?), minister and choir!
20
7Good story and visuals of Peetri Kirik if you have a G & M subscription.
How postwar Estonian architects left their mark on Toronto and Peetri Kirik is Bach's masterpiece.
https://www.theglobeandmail.co...
How postwar Estonian architects left their mark on Toronto and Peetri Kirik is Bach's masterpiece.
https://www.theglobeandmail.co...
20
0"I think it's one of the best churches I've ever been to, and I've been to Italy," Mr. Kauge says without hesitation. "It's just so cozy, and the light is perfect … I don't know, I felt so good inside this church."
Jarmo Kauge, curator of exhibit "Building a Community: Estonian Architects in Post-War Toronto" at VEMU and "To The New World: Estonian Architects in Toronto" at the Museum of Estonian Architecture in Tallinn. Two years in the making and requiring three monthlong trips to Toronto by Mr. Kauge, 30, head of the photography department. "Essential viewing for fans of European modernism".
"Mr. Bach produced many churches ... His masterpiece, however, is St. Peter's Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church at 817 Mount Pleasant Rd."
"While many Torontonians know of Mr. Prii's work since 'his background story has often been told in the media,' Mr. Kauge estimates that, from the 1950s until the mid-1990s, there were as many as 45 Estonian-Canadian architects working in Canada. And that figure may be an underestimate, since after stops in Sweden and Germany, tens of thousands of middle-class professionals fled here after the Soviet occupation of 1940; in fact, the 1961 census lists close to 19,000 Estonians in Canada. After signing one-year contracts to work as farmhands and general labourers, 'they mostly ended up in Toronto,' says Mr. Kauge, which became 'the social and cultural centre of Estonians in Canada'.
"Toronto is the only one where you can see this influence of the Estonian diaspora on the physical space and architecture of the city."
"Even the University of Toronto helped. In the 1950s and 60s, three Estonians – Michael Bach, Ants Elken and Taivo Kapsi (Kapsi had formerly worked in Finland for Viljo Revell) – taught the generation of Canadian architects who would oversee Southern Ontario's building boom of the 1960s and 70s.
Mr. Kauge has it on good authority that Raymond Moriyama cites Mr. Bach as 'one of his greatest influences.' "
http://www.eraarch.ca/2018/tal...
https://www.theglobeandmail.co...
Jarmo Kauge, curator of exhibit "Building a Community: Estonian Architects in Post-War Toronto" at VEMU and "To The New World: Estonian Architects in Toronto" at the Museum of Estonian Architecture in Tallinn. Two years in the making and requiring three monthlong trips to Toronto by Mr. Kauge, 30, head of the photography department. "Essential viewing for fans of European modernism".
"Mr. Bach produced many churches ... His masterpiece, however, is St. Peter's Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church at 817 Mount Pleasant Rd."
"While many Torontonians know of Mr. Prii's work since 'his background story has often been told in the media,' Mr. Kauge estimates that, from the 1950s until the mid-1990s, there were as many as 45 Estonian-Canadian architects working in Canada. And that figure may be an underestimate, since after stops in Sweden and Germany, tens of thousands of middle-class professionals fled here after the Soviet occupation of 1940; in fact, the 1961 census lists close to 19,000 Estonians in Canada. After signing one-year contracts to work as farmhands and general labourers, 'they mostly ended up in Toronto,' says Mr. Kauge, which became 'the social and cultural centre of Estonians in Canada'.
"Toronto is the only one where you can see this influence of the Estonian diaspora on the physical space and architecture of the city."
"Even the University of Toronto helped. In the 1950s and 60s, three Estonians – Michael Bach, Ants Elken and Taivo Kapsi (Kapsi had formerly worked in Finland for Viljo Revell) – taught the generation of Canadian architects who would oversee Southern Ontario's building boom of the 1960s and 70s.
Mr. Kauge has it on good authority that Raymond Moriyama cites Mr. Bach as 'one of his greatest influences.' "
http://www.eraarch.ca/2018/tal...
https://www.theglobeandmail.co...
23
0Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Postwar Estonian Architects (05:32)
The Toronto Estonian Int. Centre is so desperate for $ that they are now
preying on Peetri kirik for funds. It's known that the new Estonian
Centre has a huge shortfall, is way over budget, and most people will
never donate to it. What else are we willing to sell only to regret
later? Which one of our Estonian summer camps is next on their chopping
block? Why the urgency during a PANDEMIC?
preying on Peetri kirik for funds. It's known that the new Estonian
Centre has a huge shortfall, is way over budget, and most people will
never donate to it. What else are we willing to sell only to regret
later? Which one of our Estonian summer camps is next on their chopping
block? Why the urgency during a PANDEMIC?
24
14The bid to sell Peetri Kirik should not be happening for five paramount reasons:
1. Peetri Kirik is not just a building, it’s architecture. That Estonians may not be as aware of the connection of architecture to spirit, as they are of the connection of music to spirit, does not mean that connection to spirit is any less vital. Neither a photograph nor a façade affords an experience of Peetri Kirik as architecture.
On the occasion of a seminal exhibit the Estonian curator is quoted in our national Canadian newspaper as saying about Peetri Kirik: " ‘I think it's one of the best churches I've ever been to, and I've been to Italy,’ Mr. Kauge says without hesitation. ‘It's just so cozy, and the light is perfect … I don't know, I felt so good inside this church.’"
"… Mr. Bach produced many churches ... His masterpiece, however, is St. Peter's Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church at 817 Mount Pleasant Rd."
http://www.eraarch.ca/2018/tal...
https://arhitektuuripreemiad.e...
https://www.theglobeandmail.co...
2. The special quality of Peetri Kirik as architecture has not gone completely unnoticed. A major exhibit, celebrated first by the Canadian public in Toronto and then at the Estonian Museum of Architecture in Tallinn, has heralded a new era of recognition for Estonian architecture.
The exhibit (see the links above) secured a place for Estonian architecture in the mainstream that it so richly deserves, at the same time as it disclosed the history of Estonian people to more than one public that had hitherto been unaware of its existence. This may not yet be appreciated but in 2017 it initiated the voicing and discussion of its special character and ideals.
An evolution of this discussion on the basis of this material development depends on the continued existence and enjoyment of the building as architecture, and thus the maintenance of a vital connection to its history and legacy.
To those who claim we are in inevitable decline we can advise they look to the example and activities of the Alberta Estonian Heritage Society to see extraordinary possibilities of%@!#$& preservation and collaboration in diversity across many, many generations!
https://aehs.ca/book-review-fr...
http://www.arhliit.ee/kalender...
3. Now, or further on, there is a tried-and-true solution to the problem of preserving architectural heritage sustainably. It is called adaptive re-use. The very qualities of midtown Peetri Kirik that have been noted by the experienced and well-travelled as especially suited to its function as a church – a cosiness, perfect light, overall feel-good vibe – also lend themselves well to a community centre. Examples of adaptive re-use include Cecil Community Centre in downtown Toronto, a former synagogue. For decades multipurpose rentals and meetings there have included the activities of a society for the advancement and preservation of Tai Chi, which is also about spirit. In society at large performing artists and others displaced from large venues during COVID have started looking for longterm options. The need for “safe” possibly midsize venues to relieve the stresses of isolation have never been as great for all.
The active Estonian community includes guides and scouts, seniors, and other groups currently in need of a replacement for the home they, and other active communities, had at Eesti Maja, or the place they may need in our new circumstances.
We have many innovative and creative thinkers. What is preventing them from coming together, with support from the broader community which has valued and developed expertise in adaptive re-use, to address the potential of this option for Peetri Kirik?
4. Perhaps the main argument for consolidation at Tartu College was its solid self-financing capability as a student residence, but this has been hugely impacted by COVID-19, with no end in sight anywhere or anytime soon. Students are not travelling to Canada and universities have gone online. The terms of Tartu’s financing preclude rental to any but students in the school year. The Age of COVID, as coined, is upon us. Brilliant business models of old do not and will not work in the era of pandemics. Given the unprecedented uncertainty, this is hardly the time to sell off scarce community property that exists for the common good. Such is the physical, spiritual and expressly designed space of St. Peter’s Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church.
5. It is imprudent, to be generous, to ask the congregation to ignore the advice of all our Public Health officials to attend an important meeting and church service at this time. It is clear COVID-19 has necessitated much rethinking; the fate of Peetri Kirik should be no exception.
1. Peetri Kirik is not just a building, it’s architecture. That Estonians may not be as aware of the connection of architecture to spirit, as they are of the connection of music to spirit, does not mean that connection to spirit is any less vital. Neither a photograph nor a façade affords an experience of Peetri Kirik as architecture.
On the occasion of a seminal exhibit the Estonian curator is quoted in our national Canadian newspaper as saying about Peetri Kirik: " ‘I think it's one of the best churches I've ever been to, and I've been to Italy,’ Mr. Kauge says without hesitation. ‘It's just so cozy, and the light is perfect … I don't know, I felt so good inside this church.’"
"… Mr. Bach produced many churches ... His masterpiece, however, is St. Peter's Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church at 817 Mount Pleasant Rd."
http://www.eraarch.ca/2018/tal...
https://arhitektuuripreemiad.e...
https://www.theglobeandmail.co...
2. The special quality of Peetri Kirik as architecture has not gone completely unnoticed. A major exhibit, celebrated first by the Canadian public in Toronto and then at the Estonian Museum of Architecture in Tallinn, has heralded a new era of recognition for Estonian architecture.
The exhibit (see the links above) secured a place for Estonian architecture in the mainstream that it so richly deserves, at the same time as it disclosed the history of Estonian people to more than one public that had hitherto been unaware of its existence. This may not yet be appreciated but in 2017 it initiated the voicing and discussion of its special character and ideals.
An evolution of this discussion on the basis of this material development depends on the continued existence and enjoyment of the building as architecture, and thus the maintenance of a vital connection to its history and legacy.
To those who claim we are in inevitable decline we can advise they look to the example and activities of the Alberta Estonian Heritage Society to see extraordinary possibilities of%@!#$& preservation and collaboration in diversity across many, many generations!
https://aehs.ca/book-review-fr...
http://www.arhliit.ee/kalender...
3. Now, or further on, there is a tried-and-true solution to the problem of preserving architectural heritage sustainably. It is called adaptive re-use. The very qualities of midtown Peetri Kirik that have been noted by the experienced and well-travelled as especially suited to its function as a church – a cosiness, perfect light, overall feel-good vibe – also lend themselves well to a community centre. Examples of adaptive re-use include Cecil Community Centre in downtown Toronto, a former synagogue. For decades multipurpose rentals and meetings there have included the activities of a society for the advancement and preservation of Tai Chi, which is also about spirit. In society at large performing artists and others displaced from large venues during COVID have started looking for longterm options. The need for “safe” possibly midsize venues to relieve the stresses of isolation have never been as great for all.
The active Estonian community includes guides and scouts, seniors, and other groups currently in need of a replacement for the home they, and other active communities, had at Eesti Maja, or the place they may need in our new circumstances.
We have many innovative and creative thinkers. What is preventing them from coming together, with support from the broader community which has valued and developed expertise in adaptive re-use, to address the potential of this option for Peetri Kirik?
4. Perhaps the main argument for consolidation at Tartu College was its solid self-financing capability as a student residence, but this has been hugely impacted by COVID-19, with no end in sight anywhere or anytime soon. Students are not travelling to Canada and universities have gone online. The terms of Tartu’s financing preclude rental to any but students in the school year. The Age of COVID, as coined, is upon us. Brilliant business models of old do not and will not work in the era of pandemics. Given the unprecedented uncertainty, this is hardly the time to sell off scarce community property that exists for the common good. Such is the physical, spiritual and expressly designed space of St. Peter’s Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church.
5. It is imprudent, to be generous, to ask the congregation to ignore the advice of all our Public Health officials to attend an important meeting and church service at this time. It is clear COVID-19 has necessitated much rethinking; the fate of Peetri Kirik should be no exception.
18
6Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Postwar Estonian Architects (05:32), St. Peter's Estonian Church (06:11)
Is that why Mart Salumäe was voted onto the IEC board at the last meeting?
21
4Louis Kahn died before the funding of 'A Church for all Humanity' located in that hot spot on the planet: Jerusalem, could be realized.
If any culture knows what it is like to be sold out, bothered, genocide-ed, it is Estonians.
This little exquisite church should be a sanctuary for all faiths, call it a "museum church" (I have something to contribute), showcasing the horrors and TRIUMPH of the Estonian People and why humanity/the human condition should look at our history/experience, how we held out FAITH and HOPE through all that!
In the Film Gladiator, the Emperor's Sister, says: Rome is an Idea,
ESTONIA is an Idea.
REMEMBER what it was like to enter that space on a Christmas Eve, all of us together, thoughts of our families in Estonia behind drawn curtains, lighting their candles in secret.
What comes to mind, to preserve and re-purpose this sacred space is an inspiration of 'The Gamble House' in Pasadena California
by Architects Green&Green. This home, an 'ultimate bungalow' is emblematic of true southern California organic-celebrate-and dwell in nature Architecture.
It is open year round and architecture students are the residents of the upper floors.
The current offices for our Church can be "expanded upon" for a modest, say 6 story apartments/condos (more if you like, everyone else is doing it) Scandinavian Architecture: wood and brick and glass.
The curator/Kojamees/students from Estonia/Toronto, Canada, whomever, can guard/work for/generate revenue and facilitate activities for this historical Church.
I too prepared a design for the “International Centre” on Madison, however the allotment and nature of spaces were quite different, and NOT A BANK taking up most of the available footprint (I thought they were all going into the Dali-Lama's house next door) There is no easy way out- here is the real opportunity. PeaceLoveWoodstock.
If any culture knows what it is like to be sold out, bothered, genocide-ed, it is Estonians.
This little exquisite church should be a sanctuary for all faiths, call it a "museum church" (I have something to contribute), showcasing the horrors and TRIUMPH of the Estonian People and why humanity/the human condition should look at our history/experience, how we held out FAITH and HOPE through all that!
In the Film Gladiator, the Emperor's Sister, says: Rome is an Idea,
ESTONIA is an Idea.
REMEMBER what it was like to enter that space on a Christmas Eve, all of us together, thoughts of our families in Estonia behind drawn curtains, lighting their candles in secret.
What comes to mind, to preserve and re-purpose this sacred space is an inspiration of 'The Gamble House' in Pasadena California
by Architects Green&Green. This home, an 'ultimate bungalow' is emblematic of true southern California organic-celebrate-and dwell in nature Architecture.
It is open year round and architecture students are the residents of the upper floors.
The current offices for our Church can be "expanded upon" for a modest, say 6 story apartments/condos (more if you like, everyone else is doing it) Scandinavian Architecture: wood and brick and glass.
The curator/Kojamees/students from Estonia/Toronto, Canada, whomever, can guard/work for/generate revenue and facilitate activities for this historical Church.
I too prepared a design for the “International Centre” on Madison, however the allotment and nature of spaces were quite different, and NOT A BANK taking up most of the available footprint (I thought they were all going into the Dali-Lama's house next door) There is no easy way out- here is the real opportunity. PeaceLoveWoodstock.
15
5Put your money where your mouth is.
14
4Looks like all the anti-Madison agitators just found themselves a new hobby. At least it lends to gratifying entertainment. Better than the Inquirer. Keep it coming!
11
23This is an unproductive comment from someone who does not have the courage to post their name.
22
4I'm open to putting together a potential business model to support operating costs. If anyone would like to share ideas, please contact me directly -
24
0Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Marielle Voksepp (19:39)
There are lots of good suggestions made above. Sunday School is especially important. It serves many needs on top of educating children on Christianity: our community is about to lose many activities with the loss of the Estonian House.
It would be worth considering Bible study or religious text study groups outside church services. Creative approaches could attract more people, such as offering those whose Estonian is limited to conversational vocabulary a group that focuses on reading and understanding the Bible in Estonian language. Or extending the study materials to books such as Jasher or Enoch.
With the very sudden loss of the Estonian House, where will the guides and scouts go? Where will Estonian School go? Where will folk dance practice be held? Guides and scouts used to meet in the church basement, they could do so again. The room at the mid-basement that has all the wood rounds embedded in the wall is a gem. A really beautiful little room for meetings!
It would be worth considering Bible study or religious text study groups outside church services. Creative approaches could attract more people, such as offering those whose Estonian is limited to conversational vocabulary a group that focuses on reading and understanding the Bible in Estonian language. Or extending the study materials to books such as Jasher or Enoch.
With the very sudden loss of the Estonian House, where will the guides and scouts go? Where will Estonian School go? Where will folk dance practice be held? Guides and scouts used to meet in the church basement, they could do so again. The room at the mid-basement that has all the wood rounds embedded in the wall is a gem. A really beautiful little room for meetings!
12
5Kommentaarid sellele artiklile on suletud.
