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VanemadUuemad
Thanks for alerting us to the book, "In Denial: Historians, Communism & Espionage."
This reminds me that, in the history and politics section of any university bookstore, left-wing literature out-weighs scholarship of the traditional sort by a wide margin. Roger Kimball's book, "Tenured Radicals" examines this with beautiful prose that would be amusing if the subject wasn't so sorry.
Since you've raised Ernst Zundel's bad name, I'd like to mention that (while I'll not be sorry to see the last of the kook) he's unjustly being chased out of the country as a security threat. Zundel hasn't broken any laws nor has he advocated violence. By comparison, Sven Robinson (equally, a kook) qualifies as a threat as he has advocated and participated in violence and, given the opportunity, will do so again with customary impunity.
Traditional academics have pursued truth as an elusive mystery. Some modern academics view truth as illusive and, by default, they produce political works so implausible that only an educated person can believe them.
This reminds me that, in the history and politics section of any university bookstore, left-wing literature out-weighs scholarship of the traditional sort by a wide margin. Roger Kimball's book, "Tenured Radicals" examines this with beautiful prose that would be amusing if the subject wasn't so sorry.
Since you've raised Ernst Zundel's bad name, I'd like to mention that (while I'll not be sorry to see the last of the kook) he's unjustly being chased out of the country as a security threat. Zundel hasn't broken any laws nor has he advocated violence. By comparison, Sven Robinson (equally, a kook) qualifies as a threat as he has advocated and participated in violence and, given the opportunity, will do so again with customary impunity.
Traditional academics have pursued truth as an elusive mystery. Some modern academics view truth as illusive and, by default, they produce political works so implausible that only an educated person can believe them.
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0 The Zündel case has been covered in just a few Canadian publications, The Post is the only one that has written about it in any lenght. The fact is that Ernst Zündel has been held in solitary confinement since Febuary 2003. This man has never committed any crime or advocated any act of violence but is being held under a "national security certificate" for his writings that claim that the holocaust has been exagerated. He was denied dental care and a pillow for almost 7 months and in September a judge ruled that he is to spend another 6 months in solitary. Amnesty International, a group that has repeatedly been asked to help in this case has refused to protest this action by the government, the same organization that protested endlassly about the imprisonment of Nelson Mandela who had been imprisoned not for his opinions or writings but for leading a violent campaign of bombings against the South African government. Amnesty is obviosly a marxist front, something we Estonians are all too familiar with since they were of little help to us when the Soviet Union was still jailing political dissidents.
Mr. Zündel's mission in life has been the rehabilitation of Hitler's regime and he has been quite open about his political opinions. Many respectable revisionist historians, including the famous WW II author David Irving have thought of him as a neo-nazi kook and have been turned off by his extremism but the fact is that this man has been imprisoned without a trial simply for his writings. This should be of concern for all Estonians and others whose fathers and grandfathers fought on the German side during the Second World War. Publications like Eesti Elu could soon be banned by our government and anyone brave enough to write a dissenting opinion on the war could be imprisoned without trial. Mr. Leivat's recent articles could be considered "revisionist" and would fall under this category. In post 9-11 North America the forces of political correctness seek to stifle all dissenting opinions about certain subjects and would gladly turn this country into another Soviet Union.
Mr. Zündel's mission in life has been the rehabilitation of Hitler's regime and he has been quite open about his political opinions. Many respectable revisionist historians, including the famous WW II author David Irving have thought of him as a neo-nazi kook and have been turned off by his extremism but the fact is that this man has been imprisoned without a trial simply for his writings. This should be of concern for all Estonians and others whose fathers and grandfathers fought on the German side during the Second World War. Publications like Eesti Elu could soon be banned by our government and anyone brave enough to write a dissenting opinion on the war could be imprisoned without trial. Mr. Leivat's recent articles could be considered "revisionist" and would fall under this category. In post 9-11 North America the forces of political correctness seek to stifle all dissenting opinions about certain subjects and would gladly turn this country into another Soviet Union.
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0Let's call things by their real names. When Zundel denies the holocaust, he's not (as you say)expessing a "dissenting opinion". He's saying something that's factually false, much like "the earth is flat". There's a difference between expressions of opinion and expressions of fact that you should recognize, and that free speech should extend to both in no way implies that the former might be respectable or the latter true.
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0 It makes little difference what Zündel says or believes, he is expressing an opinion, one that many German Canadians that I have spoken to truly believe. My personal opinion is that all kinds of opinions should be tolerated in this country and hope that we do not end up as a third world style dictatorship where people are arrested for expressing opinions that are unpopular with the government or with certain powerful lobby groups.
There is a very "black and white" version of the Second World War that is now being promoted, on one side evil German nazis, Italian fascists and Japanese militarists and on the other the "good guys" including the former Soviet Union under Stalin. Estonia supported and fought on the axis side not because of Hitler's politics but because we had no other choice. The imprisonment of Zündel is something that should never have happened in a "democratic" country such as Canada. This should be a wake up call to all of us who see the war as it really happened, not the way that it is being presented by the media to gain sympathy for Israel.
I have spent much time in Estonia and have seen how history was falsified by the communists. Schoolchildren were taught ridiculous stories about factories making soap and lampshades out of Jewish victims. One monument was erected in Tallinn for a soviet sailor who was roasted alive by the nazis, an event that never even happened. The communist government made up many of these stories to show that they fought against an evil enemy and liberated much of Europe including Estonia. The alliance of Israel, USA and Russia against the Muslim world is a very dangerous development for the countries of Eastern Europe as we may soon have to apologize for the events of over half a century ago or be thrown in jail, all in the name of realpolitik.
There is a very "black and white" version of the Second World War that is now being promoted, on one side evil German nazis, Italian fascists and Japanese militarists and on the other the "good guys" including the former Soviet Union under Stalin. Estonia supported and fought on the axis side not because of Hitler's politics but because we had no other choice. The imprisonment of Zündel is something that should never have happened in a "democratic" country such as Canada. This should be a wake up call to all of us who see the war as it really happened, not the way that it is being presented by the media to gain sympathy for Israel.
I have spent much time in Estonia and have seen how history was falsified by the communists. Schoolchildren were taught ridiculous stories about factories making soap and lampshades out of Jewish victims. One monument was erected in Tallinn for a soviet sailor who was roasted alive by the nazis, an event that never even happened. The communist government made up many of these stories to show that they fought against an evil enemy and liberated much of Europe including Estonia. The alliance of Israel, USA and Russia against the Muslim world is a very dangerous development for the countries of Eastern Europe as we may soon have to apologize for the events of over half a century ago or be thrown in jail, all in the name of realpolitik.
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0I agree with your commentary and would add to it by mentioning that the phenomenon you describe dates to the birth of the Soviet Union. It's detailed in an interesting book by David Caute, "The Fellow Travellers: Intellectual Friends of Communism".
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0Calling Ernst Zundel a "charlatan" is the mildest possible description within the bounds of accuracy. Publicly, he has paraded about as a holocaust-denier trying to correct an historical record. But does anyone (even Peter) honestly doubt that Zundel would rejoice at the advent of an Arafat-type who might put the Jews into their proper place, under sod? Curiously, this moral-monster has recently aquired some allies among radical academics who previously restricted themselves to denying holocausts in communist countries. As this gang calls for the eradication of Israel and justice for the Palestinians, does anyone honestly doubt that they're actually appealing for someone to finish the job that Hitler began?
I'm pained at the sight of our uneducated, incoherent, gullible Peter swallowing this venom. Yet, I've nothing to say to him. None of us do, because he speaks to us a man of vision within a kingdom of the blind.
I'm pained at the sight of our uneducated, incoherent, gullible Peter swallowing this venom. Yet, I've nothing to say to him. None of us do, because he speaks to us a man of vision within a kingdom of the blind.
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0 It is truly scary to read the opinions of those who still believe that people should be locked up for having unorthodox opinions on historical events. I thought that this mentality died out with the fall of communism but I guess I was wrong.
I have been a history buff and avid reader all my life and can tell you that there are always a number of conflicting interpretations of just about any historical event. I don't think that any sane person would believe that massacres of Jews did not take place during the Second World War but the point that I am trying to make here is that much of what we read about the war was written by allied propagandists who justify actions by the Soviet Union and the British Empire, both of whom were imperial powers that killed large numbers of people who stood in their way and denied their subject countries freedom and independence. Many authors have distorted the truth in defence of these past empires and I do not think that they should be jailed for this.
I have been a history buff and avid reader all my life and can tell you that there are always a number of conflicting interpretations of just about any historical event. I don't think that any sane person would believe that massacres of Jews did not take place during the Second World War but the point that I am trying to make here is that much of what we read about the war was written by allied propagandists who justify actions by the Soviet Union and the British Empire, both of whom were imperial powers that killed large numbers of people who stood in their way and denied their subject countries freedom and independence. Many authors have distorted the truth in defence of these past empires and I do not think that they should be jailed for this.
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0No one here has said, or even hinted, that anyone should be jailed for expressing unorthodox opinions. To the contrary, it has been explicitly stated that Zundel has been done an injustice. You're barking up the wrong tree.
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0Yes, there are conflicting interpretations of historical events, but holocaust-denial is not an interpretation of an event. It's the denial of a programme spanning many years and the deniers, instead of bringing forth evidence to support their claim, merely assert that it's all a fabrication by commies and Jews. Thus, they dismiss a large, monolithic body of historical evidence and, in addition, the methodology of acquiring historical knowledge.
Haven't you noticed that holocaust-deniers, without exception, hate Jews and that, in effect, they're saying "Hitler didn't kill any Jews, but it sure would have been nice if he did"?
Haven't you noticed that holocaust-deniers, without exception, hate Jews and that, in effect, they're saying "Hitler didn't kill any Jews, but it sure would have been nice if he did"?
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0Even among holocaust deniers, there is some variation of opinion. Indeed, I encountered one who believes that the earth is hollow. Inside, there is a tropical paradise accessable from the poles and, at the end of the war, Hitler escaped to this place in a flying saucer. Eventually, he will return to save us all from the Jews. Being well-read in this area, Peter can probably provide us with more detail.
Whether he does or not is of no great consequence, however, because it reveals something about holocaust deniers: they tend to be blind-angry misfits who project the cause of their frustrations upon an external source. Uneducated misfits (Nazis)blame the Jews and are jeered at. Educated misfits (communists) blame the capitalists. Beyond the university and the CBC, they are ignored.
This is probably an accident of history. Had the Nazis won WWII, the reverse would probably be true.
Whether he does or not is of no great consequence, however, because it reveals something about holocaust deniers: they tend to be blind-angry misfits who project the cause of their frustrations upon an external source. Uneducated misfits (Nazis)blame the Jews and are jeered at. Educated misfits (communists) blame the capitalists. Beyond the university and the CBC, they are ignored.
This is probably an accident of history. Had the Nazis won WWII, the reverse would probably be true.
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0The classic work describing this remains Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer". Highly recommended.
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0 For the record, I have never said that I am a holocaust denier. I am not disputing the fact that many Jews were killed during the war. I am simply defending revisionism and bringing attention to the fact that the Canadian government is keeping a controversial author in jail as a political prisoner simply for his writings, something that the Soviet government also did not long ago. During the Brezhnev era the authorities even started to send dissidents to mental hospitals since it was believed that no sane person could question the policies of the "world's most perfect government".
The book you mentioned, UFOs Nazi Secret Weapon was written by Ernst Zündel under a pen name. I have never read it but have seen it once in high school when a student brought it in and used it as part of a presentation on UFOs. It may be a crazy book as many books on the same subject are but I do not believe that our government has the right to ban it or imprison its author.
The book you mentioned, UFOs Nazi Secret Weapon was written by Ernst Zündel under a pen name. I have never read it but have seen it once in high school when a student brought it in and used it as part of a presentation on UFOs. It may be a crazy book as many books on the same subject are but I do not believe that our government has the right to ban it or imprison its author.
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0It's true that you have never "said" that you are a holocaust-denier but you are saying that you're defending revisionism. This is a bit confusing because "revisionism" means "holocaust denial" just as "mother" means "female parent". (If anyone doubts this, please go to "google" and enter "revisionism"; in response, you'll get enough literature by holocaust-deniers to keep you reading for life.) Peter, it's time to drop the pretense on this matter.
Just as you've created a sinister impression, it's a relief to learn of your concern at the %@!#$& of controversial writers. I wonder, are you speaking up for anyone in addition to Zundel? I'm asking because Zundel is a controversial writer much like Hitler was a guy with a funny hair-cut and moustache. It's all true; but it's not the first thing that comes to mind when they are mentioned.
Just as you've created a sinister impression, it's a relief to learn of your concern at the %@!#$& of controversial writers. I wonder, are you speaking up for anyone in addition to Zundel? I'm asking because Zundel is a controversial writer much like Hitler was a guy with a funny hair-cut and moustache. It's all true; but it's not the first thing that comes to mind when they are mentioned.
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0the blocked out word -- %@!#$& -- is p-e-r-s-e-c-u-t-e-d.
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0Go to "google", search "Zundel" and fasten your seatbelt for a hair-raising ride. There's some crazies out there; and Peter has been playing with them. Some of his phrases have been lifted directly from these sites. We should pray for his soul.
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0 None of my comments have been lifted from any revisionist websites, they are all my personal opinions on this subject. When I wrote about revisionism I meant opinions about the war that have not been written by British, American or Soviet propagandists. Like it or not, all of you who defend Estonians who fought on the German side are revisionists. The war took place over 50 years ago and I think that we should be able to look at it in an objective way and examine some of the events that happened from a non-biased point of view.
I don't bother with reading neo-nazi websites although I know that you can find lots of them when doing a google search. When I write about revisionism I am not writing about modern day Pan-Germanists and Hitlerites who are attempting to rehabilitate the Third Reich. I agree 100% that Zündel fits into this category and as an Estonian nationalist I can not agree with much of what Hitler stood for. I do however believe that the Second World War was not the struggle between good and evil like it is portrayed in much of our media. Many people fought and died on the German side not because they were followers of Hitler's New Europe but because they saw the German side as the lesser of 2 evils and the only chance to destroy communism. If it was not for these brave men, not only Estonians and Germans but also Spaniands, Belgians, Norwegians and others none of us would be living in Canada now. I believe that we should honour their memory and explain to the brainwashed masses why they fought in the Waffen SS.
There are many revisionists who are not apologists for the Third Reich or Imperial Japan. Revisionists study many facts about the war that worry some people because of how they could affect public opinion about events that are happening today in the Middle East. There are many unanswered questions about the war. The British government still will not release the files from the Rudolf Hess affair and have decided to seal them for another few decades. What are they hiding? Were 6 million Jews killed by the nazis or less? Some of these people may have been killed by the Soviet Union and their deaths blamed on the Germans. The Katyn massacre is a good example of an event that was blamed on the nazis until the Russians finally admitted that they did it. For years anyone who thought otherwise was a revisionist and could have gone to jail for voicing such an opinion in the former Soviet Union. Many Jews were also killed by anti-communist partisans, a fact that many governments today would like to forget. A good example of this is the Romanian Iron Guard, one of the most anti-semetic groups in Europe at that time. They massacred large numbers of Jews and they also fought against the nazis. Similar events also happened in the Ukraine. True revisionists study history as it really happened and look for answers to some of the facsinating unanswered questions about the war.
I don't bother with reading neo-nazi websites although I know that you can find lots of them when doing a google search. When I write about revisionism I am not writing about modern day Pan-Germanists and Hitlerites who are attempting to rehabilitate the Third Reich. I agree 100% that Zündel fits into this category and as an Estonian nationalist I can not agree with much of what Hitler stood for. I do however believe that the Second World War was not the struggle between good and evil like it is portrayed in much of our media. Many people fought and died on the German side not because they were followers of Hitler's New Europe but because they saw the German side as the lesser of 2 evils and the only chance to destroy communism. If it was not for these brave men, not only Estonians and Germans but also Spaniands, Belgians, Norwegians and others none of us would be living in Canada now. I believe that we should honour their memory and explain to the brainwashed masses why they fought in the Waffen SS.
There are many revisionists who are not apologists for the Third Reich or Imperial Japan. Revisionists study many facts about the war that worry some people because of how they could affect public opinion about events that are happening today in the Middle East. There are many unanswered questions about the war. The British government still will not release the files from the Rudolf Hess affair and have decided to seal them for another few decades. What are they hiding? Were 6 million Jews killed by the nazis or less? Some of these people may have been killed by the Soviet Union and their deaths blamed on the Germans. The Katyn massacre is a good example of an event that was blamed on the nazis until the Russians finally admitted that they did it. For years anyone who thought otherwise was a revisionist and could have gone to jail for voicing such an opinion in the former Soviet Union. Many Jews were also killed by anti-communist partisans, a fact that many governments today would like to forget. A good example of this is the Romanian Iron Guard, one of the most anti-semetic groups in Europe at that time. They massacred large numbers of Jews and they also fought against the nazis. Similar events also happened in the Ukraine. True revisionists study history as it really happened and look for answers to some of the facsinating unanswered questions about the war.
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0Now we understand the revisionist's method.
1) They begin with the conclusion.
2) They support the conclusion by inventing a few key facts and then distorting the balance.
3) Evidence contrary to their conclusion (even first-person accounts) are dismissed without consideration. They are, after all, lies which make up a huge, cleverly co-ordinated propoganda scheme which has completely brainwashed almost all of humanity.
But, to apply this method, first, you must have a blind hatred for Jews and, second, limited education.
Thanks for the insights, Peter. I'll pray for you.
1) They begin with the conclusion.
2) They support the conclusion by inventing a few key facts and then distorting the balance.
3) Evidence contrary to their conclusion (even first-person accounts) are dismissed without consideration. They are, after all, lies which make up a huge, cleverly co-ordinated propoganda scheme which has completely brainwashed almost all of humanity.
But, to apply this method, first, you must have a blind hatred for Jews and, second, limited education.
Thanks for the insights, Peter. I'll pray for you.
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0You state that, "true revisionists study history as it really happened..."
Where do revisionists study, Peter? At universities, libraries, within archives of Nazi documents, by interviewing camp survivors, guards, allied soldiers, journalists, suppliers of poison gas? No, of course not! That (according to revisionists) is Jewish propoganda.
For truth, you must go to a bar on Yonge St. after wrestling matches at Maple Leaf Gardens where the guys relax with some beer and talk about pro-wrestling (which is real) and the holocaust (which is fake). The same sort of conversation transpires among tow-truck drivers idling on the DVP and in the queue at a tatoo parlour among new initiates to the Hell's Angels Motorcycle Club as they wait for a swastika to be inked on their arm.
Real historty? It's doubtful! Peter, please disabuse us of our prejudice that hatred can't turn a heart to stone and a brain to snot.
Where do revisionists study, Peter? At universities, libraries, within archives of Nazi documents, by interviewing camp survivors, guards, allied soldiers, journalists, suppliers of poison gas? No, of course not! That (according to revisionists) is Jewish propoganda.
For truth, you must go to a bar on Yonge St. after wrestling matches at Maple Leaf Gardens where the guys relax with some beer and talk about pro-wrestling (which is real) and the holocaust (which is fake). The same sort of conversation transpires among tow-truck drivers idling on the DVP and in the queue at a tatoo parlour among new initiates to the Hell's Angels Motorcycle Club as they wait for a swastika to be inked on their arm.
Real historty? It's doubtful! Peter, please disabuse us of our prejudice that hatred can't turn a heart to stone and a brain to snot.
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0When holocaust-denier David Irving encounters a Nazi death-camp survivor, he launches an abusive tirade with the accusation that such people are being paid to lie. In his mind, the Jewish propoganda machine fabulous for its ability to coordinate false testimony among hundreds of thousands of unrelated individuals.
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0Peter Bush is being indirectly painted as an anti-semitic, revisionist Zundel sympathizer. I'm convinced he's not. Accusations against Bush seem to bear the same intolerant mentality as those accusations of anti-semitism aimed at critics of Isreal's vengeful policies towards the Palestinians. Palestinian teorrists should be condemned as should uncomprimising Isreali extremists as well as Zundel style holocaust denials.
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0Wendy,
My name is Peeter Bush.
I wrote the article but I am not the "Peter" that posted the comments you appear to be referring to.
You are possibly new to this site because most readers know that I post under my full name.
Anyway, glad to see thoughtful comments and serious discussion on this contentious topic.
My name is Peeter Bush.
I wrote the article but I am not the "Peter" that posted the comments you appear to be referring to.
You are possibly new to this site because most readers know that I post under my full name.
Anyway, glad to see thoughtful comments and serious discussion on this contentious topic.
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0 I don't think it is even worth my while arguing with such a closed minded bunch of people. I have never minded debating any subject but I truly take offense to being labelled a "Jew hater". I have known some great people over the years who are Jewish and I do not think that my opposition to Zionism makes me an anti-semite just as my being against communism does not mean that I hate Russians.
To the person who offered twice to pray for me, you should be praying for Zündel since he is in a prison cell and I am free. I wonder if you are one of those religious fanatics who believe that we must support God's chosen people at all costs so that there will be a Third World War and Jesus will come back and save the world. I have met a few such types over the years, and it is their mentality that has gotten the Americans involved in the Iraqi war at the cost of over a thousand dead and many thousands wounded, not to mention the billions of dollars of taxpayers money that has been wasted.
To the person who offered twice to pray for me, you should be praying for Zündel since he is in a prison cell and I am free. I wonder if you are one of those religious fanatics who believe that we must support God's chosen people at all costs so that there will be a Third World War and Jesus will come back and save the world. I have met a few such types over the years, and it is their mentality that has gotten the Americans involved in the Iraqi war at the cost of over a thousand dead and many thousands wounded, not to mention the billions of dollars of taxpayers money that has been wasted.
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0After rummaging around in some revisionist web-sites, I can see that you have been unfairly accused of being a holocaust-denier. You are a revisionist and, that is something different. A holocaust-denier, I've discovered, denies that Hitler killed any jews while a revisionist concedes that he killed some. I was unaware of this distinction and you deserve an apology. I hope that you can forgive me.
On the other hand, you haven't been completely honest with us by claiming to be a dispassionate history buff. Revisionist history starts from the premise that jews have acted in concert to construct a world of lies to do evil. As for your assertion that your comments are independent of neo-nazi web-sites? It's not true. Your remarks on Zundel, for example, are almost word for word from, "Who is Ernst Zundel, and why is he in Prison?" by Mark Weber. I'd say that we deserve an apology.
On the other hand, you haven't been completely honest with us by claiming to be a dispassionate history buff. Revisionist history starts from the premise that jews have acted in concert to construct a world of lies to do evil. As for your assertion that your comments are independent of neo-nazi web-sites? It's not true. Your remarks on Zundel, for example, are almost word for word from, "Who is Ernst Zundel, and why is he in Prison?" by Mark Weber. I'd say that we deserve an apology.
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0 I have actually not read the article that you mentioned and am not familiar with Mark Weber. Also, you did not mantion which website you found this article in.
I would actually advise for you not to surf fascist websites as the authorities monitor who reads them and you could find yourself sharing a cell with Zündel.
Most of the revisionist literature that I have read has been in the Estonian language so I am not that familiar with the material that is on these websites. I have read many books that are sold openly in Estonian bookstores that express unorthodox and heretical opinions about some of the events that happened during the war which the Soviet authorities supressed and lied about for half a century. It is refreshing to see that in Estonia, unlike Canada, people value freedom of speech and different opinions about historical events can be openly discussed without any fear of imprisonment.
I would actually advise for you not to surf fascist websites as the authorities monitor who reads them and you could find yourself sharing a cell with Zündel.
Most of the revisionist literature that I have read has been in the Estonian language so I am not that familiar with the material that is on these websites. I have read many books that are sold openly in Estonian bookstores that express unorthodox and heretical opinions about some of the events that happened during the war which the Soviet authorities supressed and lied about for half a century. It is refreshing to see that in Estonia, unlike Canada, people value freedom of speech and different opinions about historical events can be openly discussed without any fear of imprisonment.
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0BS!
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0I've had many discussions on why the Swastika generates more attention than the hammer and cycle. Most people agree both were equally as evil, but can't explain why nazism has gotten all the attention.
The controlling forces in Hollywood and the US media appear to only focus on Nazism, which is self-serving and wrong, in my opinion.
The controlling forces in Hollywood and the US media appear to only focus on Nazism, which is self-serving and wrong, in my opinion.
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