Occupation or voluntary accession? (Part 4)
Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
VanemadUuemad
Maxim.06 Aug 2005 02:06
What about President Päts' involvement with Russian businessmen in the 30's, and generally speaking, the Russians strong support of Päts as "their man" in Estonia; what about the machhinations of the Harju Bank in the earlier 30's; what about arms sales in the 30's to Fraco's Spain? Estonia was very active in international affairs in this cruciall important historical decade, and we are sadly mistaken, if we imagine Estonia was "Isolationist" by nature-being a small European country. No-we were steeped in European affairs, and traded our interests both with our neighbours and others further afield. These interests came back to haunt us again in the late 30's, and no doubt part of Estonia's incorporation into the USSR was tied to these consequences.
.07 Aug 2005 05:56
You write about unidentified "Russian businessmen", unspecified "machinations" of a bank and national trade in "interests".
It's all vague and sinister-sounding and, worse, a cause of the Soviet occupation. You conclude that Estonia might have maintained its independence had it refrained from foreign trade.
This is as believable as the Freemason conspiracy, yet, you bristle when doubted.
Maxim.07 Aug 2005 07:15
The facts are plainly available for all to see, if you open the right sources. Päts was elected as early as the mid-20's by the Soviets to be their "leading light" in import-export dealings, and was paid a very handsome sum -some 4,000 roubles monthly! Interestingly, most Estonians abroad have staunchly stuck to their guns when it comes to defending Päts, but when the Estonian journal "Luup" first published all this information in a now famous issue back in the late 90's, it astounded most readers, and immediately discounted any recourse for denying what was suddenly confirmed as undeniable fact. I am not suggesting that Estonia's subsequent fate was purely the result of these actions (of President Päts) alone, but they no doubt played a hand in Estonian-Russian relations being all the more sour by the late 30's than otherwise may have been the case. A full account and analysis of President Päts and his activities, not only as President but as a lawyer and somewhat misguided businessman deserve closer attention in the light of what is now available through various archives. The Moscow archives are today all but a closed vault, and whoever was quick enough to get information from these sources-Margus Ilmjärv et al-our gratitude and thanks for your hard-earned efforts! Finally, if you can ever get hold of taped programs by Hardo Aasmäe, they will also provide interesting insights into much of what hitherto has remained a mystery about past Estonian leaders. Recommended listening material to all...
Maxim.07 Aug 2005 09:23
By the way, since you freely make yourself indisposed to the suggestion that Freemasonry had something to do with the subject at hand, it would not go amiss to remember, that even the good ol' Prez didn't fail to don the smocking once a week and head off to the nearest Lodge to...ah yes...that part of course is a secret...
Make up you mind, Maxim07 Aug 2005 16:18
You state that "the facts are plainly available for all to see" and in the same paragraph, "the Moscow archives are today all but a closed vault" and, "if you can ever get hold of taped programs by Hardo Aasmäe, they will also provide interesting insights".

From this it would appear that the facts have only been seen by a select few. They can't be verified by conventional historical researchers and the few who believe seem to be uneducated and gullible.

Maxim.08 Aug 2005 00:27
Listen idiot-I wrote that thanks to Margus Ilmjärv the facts are all available in book form. Can't you read or what's your problem? As if I'm sitting here making this up as I go along. Some people.......and for your information there is someone else from Estonia who regularly contributes comments here in Estonian called Margus Lepa. He has also enlivened the atmosphere of argument here in Estonia about a variety of subjects. I'm just repeating highly interesting information revealed by him and others who have spent countless hours doing their homework-in any case countless compared with what you call a fair retort.
Maxim.08 Aug 2005 02:27
A thousand apologies to anyone I may have offended in my last piece of correspondence-my Slavic temperament got the better of me again. But really-if it's already been said that these facts were available at any kiosk simply by purchasing a copy of Luup (now still readily available at any respectable library), or read in the pages of Magnus Ilmjärve's "Hääletu Alistumine" then I really don't see what further problem there could possibly be in this information not finding dissemination, or heaven forbid; being cast as simply another Masonic plot.
Maxim, the Slav?08 Aug 2005 09:45
You are probably the only Slav that is also an Estonian nationalist. That's an interesting story you should tell us more about.
Anonymous08 Aug 2005 10:40
It's true that independent Estonia engaged in foreign trade. It's also true that Estonia was occupied by Soviet military force. It's a fallacy -- post hoc ergo propter hoc -- to conclude that one event caused the other because they occurred in sequence.

It's doubtful that Maxim will take any notice. With an idea in his head, he's like a dog with a bone. No discussion involving fact and reason will distract his enthusiasm. This is common among high-school dropouts who decide to become intellectuals.
to anonymous08 Aug 2005 11:14
some prefer high school and tv graduates that become teachers to our children teaching politically correct drivel .... my preference is for getting the real story on history; sometimes you have to read more widely to get it
Shocked08 Aug 2005 13:15
I didn't know that high school and tv graduates (?) became teachers, nor that children teach politically correct drivel.
Are you certain about this?
hungry for the real story...08 Aug 2005 13:31
When you read more widely for the real story on history, how do you know that you've got it when you've finally gotten to it?
Maxim.08 Aug 2005 13:36
I'm sorry, but I truly fail to see what I haven't taken into consideration. I appreciate what you have written, and am in sincere agreement with you. However, don't you feel strongly about what you believe to be factual, or have you projected your sense of fact above everyone else's and proceed along the lines of character assassination in order to get your point across. Otherwise it seems as though you are strongly recommending to me that some issues had better remain undiscussed, or else. ..
Maxim.08 Aug 2005 13:41
If I can help you a little on this one..try very hard to remember what you have read about; form a picture in your mind-it must be as coherent a picture as possible. These "layers" must increase over time-it seems to me that every time you read or hear something new, you immediately forget it, and then you have to start all over again! Pity; but you're just making life and the process of education unnecessarily difficult for yourself. Better luck though in the future.
to hungry ....08 Aug 2005 14:23
you start with all of the information you can gather on the topic .... then comes the hard part ... you have to think
Shocked II08 Aug 2005 18:00
I read the first part of your comment carefully, several times. Still, I understood it just as Shocked did, but you seem to mean something else. Can you help us out by rephrasing it?
Maxim.09 Aug 2005 05:25
Kui Arno oli koolimajja jõudnud..oli (ingliskeelne tund) juba alganud....so have a good lesson everyone; and listen very closely to what the teachers have to say. They are all very helpful and have your best interests at hear-believe me; I know!
to the shocked09 Aug 2005 06:30
place a comma after children ....take a breath ..... continue ....
Spectator11 Aug 2005 01:40
Seldom do I have a belly laugh but the 29 posts are very entertaining and Maxim keep it up. I have investigated Estonian history and it is becoming politically correct. Some of the answers can be found in overseas archives where the letters of the Estonians to relatives provide interesting insights into some of the scandals mentioned. You will delight in my forthcoming book. my father's eyewitness account of the 1920s, thirties and forties.
to - Spectator11 Aug 2005 10:57
If you enjoy this type of entertainment, go to the circus. Performers in the freak-show, there, are paid to humiliate themselves before a crowd and it's done in a private venue, away from the general public that's easily embarrassed.
re maxim08 Aug 2005 07:33
it is safe to say that maxim ihas read far more widely than the people posting comments against him ... it would be interesting to get the real story on the collapse of the harju bank, armand hammer role and its financing of the december 1924 attempted coup
to shocked08 Aug 2005 14:09
to is a preposition, children is the noun in the phrase .... try again
who should try again?08 Aug 2005 15:48
Of course, 'to' is a preposition, in this and every other phrase in the English language. Who questions it? 'Children' is not "the noun" in the phrase -- it's one of several nouns in the phrase. And what of it? Your original comment remains incomprehensible.
Maxim.10 Aug 2005 02:58
Of course it would pay to investigate why President Päts in 1934 dissolved the hard-fought elections which were won by the "Vaps" faction headed by Andres Larka. Päts claims the victory could have brought instability, but effectively, the President then disarmed the country, and Estonians were left to fend for their freedom with their own bare hands. Why would Päts be so alarmed by these veteran soldiers, and so madly driven to disarm the country, I wonder? Whose interests did he really serve? Certainly not Estonia's in any case! And now we mainly remember Päts for saving us from a bloody confrontation with the returned Soviet forces in 1944-hmm; something here doesn't quite add up, methinks.
Peep10 Aug 2005 07:04
It looks like Maxim is speaking out from both sides of his mouth again. First he states "Of course it would pay to investigate .. " but then he makes some conclusions about president Päts. Now then Maxim, make up your mind or is your Slavic heritage showing again. I was born in Estonia and hold dear what my parents tought me. The 4 or 5 commentators mentioned before in my opinion are stirring up the Estonian community. I don't belive that is what EE Online wants. As mentioned by someone let's have a registration fee and maybe that will get rid of the garbage.
Peter10 Aug 2005 07:09
I hope that even my most vocal critics would agree that our community needs to be stirred up in order to reverse our decline. I think that the internet has done more for eestlus here in Canada than any organization or club in the last few decades.
..10 Aug 2005 06:13
Eesti Elu....14 inimest on surma saanud Naissaare läheduses olevas Eesti meres-kus te olete????
Peter10 Aug 2005 10:07
Your comments about the freemasons are interesting. I do not doubt that secret sovieties have had considerable influence in many different countries over the years. Sometimes they have even influenced governments openly. Besides the freemasons the Orange Order, Ku Klux Klan, Opus Dei, Bruderbond and Mafia have all been very powerful organizations in their respective countries.
The freemasons however, have not been a cohesive movement. They are so large that they have always been divided into different factions. For example, most of the comspiring that brought about the American, French and Russian revolutions took place in masonic lodges. However, the results of these revolutions were very different.
The Russian government led by Kerensky was made up of freemasons but they were overthrown by the communists, a group that also was heavily represented in this order who ended up closing all of the lodges in the Soviet union and making this secret society illegal. There were also many White Guard members who were masons, Gen. Kornilov among them.
It is true that Päts and Laidoner were masons but so was anyone in Europe at the time who was rich and powerful. I do not think that Päts let in the Soviet army because of a masonic conspiricy, he simply felt that he had no choice. Many criticize him now but what would they have done in his place?
It was probably just by a fluke of history that Estonia became independent. The English and French refused to recognize Estonian independence until the fall of Admiral Kolchak's government. They viewed Estonia as a renegade province and if they had their way we would have stayed under "One Russia, Great and Indivisable".
One thing I would like to mention about the masons is that I do not think that such an organization has a place in any modern, democratic society. I was very disappointed to find out that Laar and some other Estonian politicians had decided to join this anachronism. The Estonian people should convince their elected leaders that the place for political debating and decision making is in parliament, not in a masonic lodge.

Maxim.10 Aug 2005 12:56
Thank you again for your constructive and interesting comments, and certainly you help to create a better balance to the overall picture we are looking at here. I was very dissapointed to hear that Laar has also decided to join a Lodge-it must have been his good friend -former Swedish Prime Minister Carl Bildt that turned the corner on that decision. However, I perfectly agree with your notions concerning the Mason. I also agree with Peep; that we can't find the right mix of argument that would help "solve" the mystery as to why our history is so damn complicated! I will not rub salt into other people's wounds, and will now leave this subject to rest.
to - Peter and Maxim10 Aug 2005 14:39
High-school dropouts of no consequence seem to know what the Freemasons do and who joined them just yesterday.
What is so secret about them?
to-Peep11 Aug 2005 00:39
Looks like big brother is making another attempt here to get his way-history lessons are obviously of little value to some. Stalin brought about a sense of "openness" to his society-out the window went the intelligentsia and all other threatening forms of life; the same happened in China with the Cultural revolution. And these days we are nudging harder and harder in the West to get people to reveal their identity when expressing their thoughts. The frog in the extreme water temperature syndrome, you could call it. Peep should know better-he lived in a one-candidate regime where someone looked over your shoulder in the ballot box; yet he wants a return of these good old days. These politically correct people argue that others should have nothing to hide, if they speak the truth-let them reveal themselves to those who really must know who they are. Try convincing someone who made it through a civil revolution (like Russia's or China's) as to whether that really is the case. If we didn't have the framework (made up of the politically correct police force!) for conspiring to rid free thinkers amongst us, then the picture today would be vastly different and considerably less threatening. Peep even manages to convey a sinister tone in his comment whether he admits to it or not. However, libel being what it is today, the first people to go underground in any so-called effort at "openness" are the free thinkers. What do you have left? The idiots who shout at others for saying something in the first place, when really the former wanted the Metropolis to be filled with their own egotistically-minded pollution. Eesti Elu-look out! Your days of freedom could be numbered, if the likes of Peep get their way.
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