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VanemadUuemad
I do not agree with the politically correct statement that Estonians were pro-British prior to WW II. The British Empire was no less evil than the other empires that it fought. WW I was a tragic and insane clash of empires that the West has still not recovered from. The British saw Imperial Germany as a competitor to their imperial ambitions and were no less guilty of starting the war than Germany was. The British Empire was no friend of Estonia as their only motivation in helping our new republic was their opposition to Communism and German expansionism in the Baltics. They never supported the republics of Estonia and Latvia as they hoped that both would be absorbed by the White Russian government of Admiral Kolchak. Only when the White movement was defeated by the communists did they finally recognized the Baltic states.
During Estonia's war of independence, the British Navy provided material assistance to Estonians. Germany, by contrast, sent troops to fight them with the aim of turning Estonia into a German colony. When the Nazi's came to power in Germany, they adopted a similar goal, with an especially iniquitous addition -- had they won the war, the Nazi's would have deported all Estonians to Russia to make room for Germans. Viewed from that perspective, we should say that the Soviet victory in Estonia was second-to-worst of the possible outcomes since they only killed or deported a fraction of us.
You think that there is something admirable in Nazis. You must have a snake in your head.
You think that there is something admirable in Nazis. You must have a snake in your head.
Where in my comment did I even mention Hitler's government which did not come to power until 15 years after WW I?
You are right that the British navy helped Estonia during the War of Independence but it was never the policy of Britain's government to support independence for Estonia. When the British sent tanks to Gen. Yunenich's short-lived Republic of North-Western Russia in 1919 they made sure that these weapons would not fall into the hands of the Estonian army. Both Britain and France insisted that Gen. Laidoner take orders from Kolchak and refused to recognize Estonian independence as they felt that it would divide the White movement and bring the communists to power. German policy was no different as the Imperial German government and later the leftover monarchist forces of Gen. Von Der Goltz considered the Estonian army to be "red" and supported the Landeswehr which was set up to fight the communists but ended up fighting the Estonian army instead.
If Kolchak's forces had won the civil war then I think that Britain would have probably sent weapons and assistance to the Russians to bring Estonia and other renegade provinces back to Russia and Estonian independance would have been a brief historical footnote.
You are right that the British navy helped Estonia during the War of Independence but it was never the policy of Britain's government to support independence for Estonia. When the British sent tanks to Gen. Yunenich's short-lived Republic of North-Western Russia in 1919 they made sure that these weapons would not fall into the hands of the Estonian army. Both Britain and France insisted that Gen. Laidoner take orders from Kolchak and refused to recognize Estonian independence as they felt that it would divide the White movement and bring the communists to power. German policy was no different as the Imperial German government and later the leftover monarchist forces of Gen. Von Der Goltz considered the Estonian army to be "red" and supported the Landeswehr which was set up to fight the communists but ended up fighting the Estonian army instead.
If Kolchak's forces had won the civil war then I think that Britain would have probably sent weapons and assistance to the Russians to bring Estonia and other renegade provinces back to Russia and Estonian independance would have been a brief historical footnote.
To prove your point by speculating on what Britain might have done had historical events taken a different course is absolutely unconvincing.
You admit that Britain assisted Estonia during the war of independence and that Germany sent troops to fight them.
I wonder how the Estonians felt about that? I'd say that sort of thing would cultivate pro-British attitudes.
I wonder how the Estonians felt about that? I'd say that sort of thing would cultivate pro-British attitudes.
The British and German empires held the exact same views when it came to the Baltic states. Both countries considered them to be part of Russia and were not interested in supporting their independence. It is true that the the seizure of a few Russian ships by the British navy was popular at the time but it did not take long before Estonians realized that Britain was only interested in helping Estonia as part of its strategy of aiding the White Russian forces which would again incorporate Estonia into their "Great and Indivisable Russia".
The Germans, on the other hand, were very unpopular in Estonia during WW I and had almost no support except by their fellow countrymen who lived there. They were not liked or trusted as their behaviour was extremely arrogant and oppressive and they seemed to go out of their way when it came to alienating the masses.
In spite of German politics, Estonia has always looked up to German culture and during the period between the wars, most students in Estonian schools learned German rather than English, French or Russian, a fact that shows just which European culture was the most highly thought of at the time.
The minority who were very pro-British, the "anglophiles" ended up betraying Estonia during WW II by providing Britain with all kinds of useful information which was promptly passed on the the Red Army, a fact that was well documented in one of Sergei Soldatov's books.
The Germans, on the other hand, were very unpopular in Estonia during WW I and had almost no support except by their fellow countrymen who lived there. They were not liked or trusted as their behaviour was extremely arrogant and oppressive and they seemed to go out of their way when it came to alienating the masses.
In spite of German politics, Estonia has always looked up to German culture and during the period between the wars, most students in Estonian schools learned German rather than English, French or Russian, a fact that shows just which European culture was the most highly thought of at the time.
The minority who were very pro-British, the "anglophiles" ended up betraying Estonia during WW II by providing Britain with all kinds of useful information which was promptly passed on the the Red Army, a fact that was well documented in one of Sergei Soldatov's books.
There's some truth in what you say about about the status of German culture in Estonia between the wars. Nonetheless, you'd like to obfuscate the fact that German culture was eventually hi-jacked by the Nazis. I rather doubt that Estonians were impressed by the book-burning rallies, %@!#$& of independent thinkers, confiscation of Church properties, the regimentation of German society into a cult of Hitler whorshipers, aryan supremists and the like. Naziism wasn't German culture anymore than communism was Russian culture and only the lunatic-fringe is impressed by that sort of thing.
I'm so proud to be an Estonian because they are, in large part, an unassuming, down-to-earth and decent people.
I'm so proud to be an Estonian because they are, in large part, an unassuming, down-to-earth and decent people.
The blocked out word is "p-e-r-s-e-c-u-t-i-o-n".
Dear editor: what's wrong with that?
Dear editor: what's wrong with that?
I think it's at least good to see people arguing this sort of subject to the endth degree. Peter seems to know a lot about the topic, and I can't deny that his critics put up some good points. Well done to all participants-however, I think that as time moves on, Estonians too will be considerably less negative about Russians in regard to Estonian politics and in general. This might be the right ingredient required to balance out such a pro-German attitude among many Estonians. Best wishes to all my former Vironian colleagues who recently celebrated their anniversary.
You give yourself away as not being an Estonian even if you say you are. Quote from your comment "I'm so proud to be an Estonian because they are, in large part, an unassuming, down-to-earth and decent people." If you were and Estonian you would have said " ... because we are, ..." rather than " ..they are..". Was that a slip by a wantabe ?
The automatic filter tries to block any derivative from "p-e-r-s-e", a well known derogatory term in Estonian. Unfortunately, "p-e-r-s-ecution" was caught in the process. I'll see if the filter can be adjusted.
Thanks for the explanation. I saw something similar happen once before and wondered why.
You have a very complex job in trying to screen out the gratuitous. I wonder if it might be simpler to adopt the policy of the Postimees by asking readers to report unacceptable commentary.
Do what you think is best and God bless your good work.
You have a very complex job in trying to screen out the gratuitous. I wonder if it might be simpler to adopt the policy of the Postimees by asking readers to report unacceptable commentary.
Do what you think is best and God bless your good work.
Just curious, what are the unacceptable words in EE?
There are not too many words on the list, only %@!#$& %@!#$& %@!#$& %@!#$& %@!#$& %@!#$& and %@!#$&
And as always: Eesti Elu is not responsible for posted comments. We reserve the right to delete any comment deemed unacceptable.
And as always: Eesti Elu is not responsible for posted comments. We reserve the right to delete any comment deemed unacceptable.
Thanks Tauno.
Now that I know those words, I'll try to avoid them. %@!#$&
Now that I know those words, I'll try to avoid them. %@!#$&
Peter refers to many historical facts but leaves other sources untouched. Why doesn't he read the pre-WWII litertaure of Estonian, in Estonian, then he'd get a measure of what the political stance and sentiments of the population were at the time, pro-German or pro-British. EKN's article doesn's talk about who srtuck what alliances, who connived politically etc during the pre-war period, but mentions how Estonians felt emotionally about about the British as opposed to the Germans.
Kommentaarid sellele artiklile on suletud.