Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
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I think this installment of articles is extremely interesting, and offers a genuine means of clarifying the annals of history. The following quote is the one causing me most concern; "Although Western powers did not accept the occupation and continued to recognize the sovereignty of the Republic of Estonia, in reality they had abandoned Estonia". Even today, as much as we would like to believe that since President Wilson ever came up with the idea that that the world should become more like a global community in order to better account for its deeds, it still seems as though opposing political interests are at the heart of world politics. Germany has never been a close ally to Russia since Hitler's rise, and the technological assistance to Russia, along with the much advanced plans of a gas pipeline under the Baltic Sea witness the overwhelming tendency to ignore the lessons of history among the same allies who eventually betrayed us, including the USA. Let's hope there will be enough freedom fighters when the next round of global wars get underway, and Estonia's independence will again be put under enormous strain.
You took a mountain of facts and organized them into a logical, readable presentation.
I disagree strongly with your last paragraph, however. Why? Because of everything that you wrote beforehand and summarized, very powerfully, in the second to last paragraph.
Congratulations, all the same.
I disagree strongly with your last paragraph, however. Why? Because of everything that you wrote beforehand and summarized, very powerfully, in the second to last paragraph.
Congratulations, all the same.
Please identify yourself/yourselves so that I can tip my hat to you as we meet.
For a different perspective on this topic you really should read the report of the commision at
www.historycommission.ee
As far as I know this commision was completely impartial with no consituents to defend and nothing to gain.
It is somewhat strange that the author of this article wishes to remain unknown, usually its someone with the initials LL whoever that is.
The English is noticeably better aside from the odd ackward term such as "field of battle" so perhaps EKN has hired a ghost.
www.historycommission.ee
As far as I know this commision was completely impartial with no consituents to defend and nothing to gain.
It is somewhat strange that the author of this article wishes to remain unknown, usually its someone with the initials LL whoever that is.
The English is noticeably better aside from the odd ackward term such as "field of battle" so perhaps EKN has hired a ghost.
Thanks for the reference. I've just skimmed through the document and can see that it's worth reading carefully.
You are right about the English. It has risen to the level of acceptability. The EKN was hauled over the coals after feeding us a couple of articles that sounded like they might have been written by Mike Tyson. After that, they put a bit of effort into it, as they should have in the first place.
It was many years ago that (the late and still missed) Tõnu Parming wrote about this issue with insight and elegance. That I still remember it, obviously, means that it had an impact on me and, I've often thought, it ought to be reprinted. Still do.
Much later, the same territory was examined by Lennart Meri's commission on war crimes. The resulting document is a model of thorough and balanced reporting. (Hardly against expectation, since it was composed by a group of intellectual heavy-weights.)
When the EKN decided to have a go at the subject, I asked myself why, wondering what was previously overlooked that called for elaboration. I didn't find the answer to that question. Moreover, I was struck by the tone of the articles. They sound like a rebuttal addressed to an unidentified accuser and, I wonder, who could it be?
Much later, the same territory was examined by Lennart Meri's commission on war crimes. The resulting document is a model of thorough and balanced reporting. (Hardly against expectation, since it was composed by a group of intellectual heavy-weights.)
When the EKN decided to have a go at the subject, I asked myself why, wondering what was previously overlooked that called for elaboration. I didn't find the answer to that question. Moreover, I was struck by the tone of the articles. They sound like a rebuttal addressed to an unidentified accuser and, I wonder, who could it be?
Each installment in the series was followed by a riot provoked by Peter and Maxim. They remind me of British soccer hoologans who go to the game to get drunk and pick fights. They met their opposition and, in the end, they got as good as they gave. The final score was about even: three teeth to an eyeball.
You're entitled to your opinion, my friend, and no doubt even you can understand that neither I nor Peter provoked the ongoing argument. We have both been attacked with some quite vicious arguments that any court order would have easily settled in our favour. It should also be remembered that Peter and I have quite different political views, but still we don't speak about each other as rudely as our critics do about us. Your comment is just another one in a long trail of lies! Once again, congratulations to the authors for a very interesting and highly informative article.
Maxim -- You should admit that you have baited readers with some outrageous statements.
I haven't baited anyone-we're all free to believe and write what we want; that's the beauty of an open forum. And I refuse to be muzzled by your slander, since you know you have every right to respond to any of my comments, or come up with your own. In fact it would be good sometime to know just what it is you actually believe in, rather than telling others that whatever opinions they hold, they will undoubtedly be the wrong ones sorts of ideas anyway. Better luck in the future.
You have stated that Estonians in Canada categorically condemn those that were forced to serve in the Soviet army.
Because you lived in Canada, you must know that is not true. So, other than to bait us, why did you state it?
Because you lived in Canada, you must know that is not true. So, other than to bait us, why did you state it?
This is NOT a very good attempt at proving "baiting", since the problem not only exists in Canada, it exists everywhere you happen to find Estonians. There is not nearly enough room here to go into any detail about this issue, and more than likely it will only result in the same round of ideas rearing their ugly heads again. If you really think that I am in the baiting business, then I am not about to fall for that argument again-and no further comment is required on this matter. Better luck in the future.
You stated that Estonians abroad, who have not returned to Estonia, have forfeited their right to do so.
You know that it isn't true. Why did you state it?
You know that it isn't true. Why did you state it?
Tell me why they refuse to come to Estonia, and I'll tell you how they've forfeited their right.
Sounds like another bait Maxim. You try to answer a question with a question. Will you ever learn ? This certainly is the mother of all. Your Russian teachers taught you well or are they providing you still with instructions ? By the way when are you going to court as you previously mentioned. (It did sound like a threat.) I for one don't want to visit because of people like you. No it's not a personal attack just that you are a member of a group of people that I would rather stay away from. Far away. Good luck and have a good time like me over here.
Why is it that you expect me to learn-what about yourself-aren't you in the learning business, or is it that it just gives you pleasure to put others in their place? I'm very sorry, but if I feel I have a right to an opinion and want to share it, I don't understand why I should have to seek your advice or stay away from here just because it suits you. You're welcome here as much as I am-methinks.
" I don't understand why I should have to seek your advice ... " .Then don't ask us questions like , " Tell me why they refuse to come to Estonia..." . In all seriousness Maxim , how old are you ? Maybe I could make more sense out of you comments if I took your age into account .
Your getting pretty hot under the collar now-and it's showing. Keep your cool if you want to hold any kind of reasonable discussion with me. It's in our best interests, don't you think?
I can only speak for myself, so I can't tell you why others have not returned to Estonia. I have compelling reasons: children to educate, an elderly parent to support and a job to make it all possible. Others have equally compelling reasons. Eventually, I'll retire in Estonia because I like it there. I have an Estonian passport and can go there when it suits me. Others may do likewise.
I've responded to your (unreasonable) condition to the degree that is humanly possible. In response, I'll ask you why you have baited us on this matter. I will not ask you why we have forfeited our right to return to Estonia because we haven't and you know that we haven't. I'm simply asking why you have baited us on this matter.
I've responded to your (unreasonable) condition to the degree that is humanly possible. In response, I'll ask you why you have baited us on this matter. I will not ask you why we have forfeited our right to return to Estonia because we haven't and you know that we haven't. I'm simply asking why you have baited us on this matter.
Don't create a storm in a teacup please. I have not said or done anything that is calculated to create a nasty response from you or anyone else. I applaude your commitment to come to Estonia and wish you only the very best. And with regard to your response to my arguments, as always I repeat-better luck in the future.
You've finally confirmed my suspicion: your head is simply bullet-proof.
I once heard Keith Jarrett interviewed on the radio. In case you're unfamiliar with him, he's a peerless improvisor at the piano. His musical ideas seem limitless. You could fairly say that he's the Shakespear among improvisors. Yet, in the interview, he sounded exactly like you.
Needless to say, he doesn't do many interviews. Like most people, he'd rather parade his strengths. You, curiously, feel compelled to parade your deficiency. It's simply mystifying. I can understand what motivates a street-beggar to display a deformed arm to passers-by; but, why would you the equivalent here? There is nothing apparent to be gained.
I read your postings with hypnotic revulsion; the same that I feel when I see a snake. Because it was so uncomfortable, I've tried hard to shame you into silence with insults and ridicule. I realize now that's impossible. You'll never hear from me again because I'll never read another word that you write. No, not even the inevitable response to this message. Take your victory, combine it with a few "kroon" to get on the bus, and go a long way with it.
Unlike your troubled colleage, Peter, you don't seem to have any malice in you and, therefore, I've no reason to dislike you. Once you're out of sight, you'll be out of mind.
God made each and every one of us special and put us on this earth for a purpose. For most of us that purpose is elusive and, if were lucky enough to discover it, we must come to terms with it's inconspicuous profile and modest scale. Nonetheless, our purpose, great or small, offers an equally profound sense of fulfillment to all. I hope that you find yours.
I once heard Keith Jarrett interviewed on the radio. In case you're unfamiliar with him, he's a peerless improvisor at the piano. His musical ideas seem limitless. You could fairly say that he's the Shakespear among improvisors. Yet, in the interview, he sounded exactly like you.
Needless to say, he doesn't do many interviews. Like most people, he'd rather parade his strengths. You, curiously, feel compelled to parade your deficiency. It's simply mystifying. I can understand what motivates a street-beggar to display a deformed arm to passers-by; but, why would you the equivalent here? There is nothing apparent to be gained.
I read your postings with hypnotic revulsion; the same that I feel when I see a snake. Because it was so uncomfortable, I've tried hard to shame you into silence with insults and ridicule. I realize now that's impossible. You'll never hear from me again because I'll never read another word that you write. No, not even the inevitable response to this message. Take your victory, combine it with a few "kroon" to get on the bus, and go a long way with it.
Unlike your troubled colleage, Peter, you don't seem to have any malice in you and, therefore, I've no reason to dislike you. Once you're out of sight, you'll be out of mind.
God made each and every one of us special and put us on this earth for a purpose. For most of us that purpose is elusive and, if were lucky enough to discover it, we must come to terms with it's inconspicuous profile and modest scale. Nonetheless, our purpose, great or small, offers an equally profound sense of fulfillment to all. I hope that you find yours.
Hey, wow-I even get one last final message. I'm deeply touched that you took the troubel to write. However, I don't for a minute believe anything you say, because your message is such a confused muddle of emotions; one minute you go overboard with your criticism of me, the next you say I'm not such a bad person afterall-make up your mind, will you!! As it happens, I don't think I'm as bad a person as some people imagine me to be, and I think that you're probably a very reasonable person too when it comes down to it. You just need a little more encouragement and belief in yourself, and then you'll come through. What, of course, troubles me the most about my critics, is that I get feedback about all and sundry, and nothing that develops the actual subject under discussion. Fortunately though, as many people have already commented beforehand, this is one of the best efforts by the EKN to produce an article that is extremely interesting. Oh well, if it really means having to say goodbye to you, then so be it-all the best, have a wonderful Christmas and a Happy 2006!
you must be a bit dizzy maxim because she knocked you down in every round even though she couldn't knock you out. She's in a heavier weight-class so i suppose that you can call it a win for your staying power and your still here and she isnt. At the begining I sided with you because you were the lamb and she was the wolf. Later I had to change sides simply because she was right. Can't say as I liked her though. When she got out of the ring and showed her true colours was I ever surprised because she is actually human. I still think you should find a new line of work. More punishment like that is going to leave you permanently punch drunk.
..and to think I get hauled over the coals for failing to make myself understood. What exactly are you talking about???
Don't kid yourself. Go back and read your last post before the end and you'll see that you had nothing left to say. You didnt answer the bell for the last round. Misunderstood? Go on. How can you misundestand nothing? You punched above your weight but lost every round and couldn't go the distance. I have to change my original judgement. You lost on a TKO. Better luck next time.
Does anyone know if Tõnu Parming got hauled over the coals by the vanad kaigamehed? There were still a lot of them around back then.
I can recall no conflict between Parming and the vanad kaikamehed. Like them, Parming was a conservative nationalist; although, not narrow-minded. On one occasion, he took the EKN to task for some its posturing and pretense. On another, he attacked a liberal among us for encouraging an understanding attitude toward Arnold Green and other old commies like him. The article was titled, "Enne kui ma vabandan..." Parming was a brilliant, informed commentator.
I would love to see a selection of his better articles reprinted. (Dear editor. Can you take a hint?)
I would love to see a selection of his better articles reprinted. (Dear editor. Can you take a hint?)
It would be interesting to re-read an article that originally appeared 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50 years ago in Meie Elu or Vaba Eestlane.
Any chance that the editor would be willing to translate the articles? The internet is a powerful far reaching and long lasting thing but it operates mainly in English. Most posting in Estonian Life are in English and we seem to have quite a few none estonian readers as well. There are still a lot of old commies and their fellow travellers around although they seem to have quietened down a lot.
There appears to be a fairly new patriotic group of young people in Estonia that share many of EKN's political outlooks. They respect those veterans who fought for Estonia on the right side and they abhor Soviet monuments and the Soviet legacy. There is even an interesting article about Battalion Narwa and lots of pictures. Judging by their dress, bearing and haircuts these young men are probably serving or have served in Estonian defence forces. Some here, especially among the older generation, have been concerned that Estonian youth has become indoctrinated by by former communist functionaries but this appears not to be the case here.
You can find the web site which is in English at
www.hot.ee/pikselid.raame.htm
You can find the web site which is in English at
www.hot.ee/pikselid.raame.htm
I couldn't find this site. Can anyone help me?
Thanks, in advance.
Thanks, in advance.
Looks like they just took their website off line for updating or it got blocked for some reason. Too bad as it was quite interesting although the Enlgish was a bit unpolished. I recall that they did show an email address at
estland88@yahoo.com
You may be able to get the info about the organization forwarded if you are interested in pursuing this. Their name was E.P.O. which probably stands for Estonian Patriotic Association.
estland88@yahoo.com
You may be able to get the info about the organization forwarded if you are interested in pursuing this. Their name was E.P.O. which probably stands for Estonian Patriotic Association.
Not many women about. Wonder why?
..works real good.
Is that you, Peter, connecting us to this?
Is that you, Peter, connecting us to this?
I took some time and read the Estonian language material. My initial reaction was the same but I found I agreed with about 95% of what they say and stand for.
The english version is not great and it doesn,t have the excellent articles about Rebane and Riipalu. I consider myself to be a conservative nationalist and I was somewhat surprised that this group would describe themselves as far right. Perhaps that is how they are seen in Estonia as a result of the long occupation by the extreme left.
Also, there is no evidence such as swastikas or pictures of Germans that would indicate that they are neo Nazis.
Take some time and read it through and you may change your mind. At the least you will get some interesting background about the two knight's cross holders and batallion Narwa.
The english version is not great and it doesn,t have the excellent articles about Rebane and Riipalu. I consider myself to be a conservative nationalist and I was somewhat surprised that this group would describe themselves as far right. Perhaps that is how they are seen in Estonia as a result of the long occupation by the extreme left.
Also, there is no evidence such as swastikas or pictures of Germans that would indicate that they are neo Nazis.
Take some time and read it through and you may change your mind. At the least you will get some interesting background about the two knight's cross holders and batallion Narwa.
EKN says in the article that most (interestingly rather than virtually all) Estonians serving with the Germans had been mobilized rather than volunteered.
The write up in the Estonian language section of the EPO website (click on the Estonian flag) notes that both SS col. Rebane and SS lt.col.Riipalu (Reibach) joined voluntarily in 1941 and 1942 when it appeared virtually certain that the Soviet Union would lose the war. This is not in any way to disparage or detract from their herosim earning the KC in honourable battle against the Reds, just ań observation.
Does anyone out there know what the situation was with the other two Knight's Cross winners (also SS?) ie. did they also volunteer early in the war or were they dragooned? How about Hando Ruus?
The write up in the Estonian language section of the EPO website (click on the Estonian flag) notes that both SS col. Rebane and SS lt.col.Riipalu (Reibach) joined voluntarily in 1941 and 1942 when it appeared virtually certain that the Soviet Union would lose the war. This is not in any way to disparage or detract from their herosim earning the KC in honourable battle against the Reds, just ań observation.
Does anyone out there know what the situation was with the other two Knight's Cross winners (also SS?) ie. did they also volunteer early in the war or were they dragooned? How about Hando Ruus?
Teame ju kõik et eestis on veel palju "seltsimehi" kõrgete kohtadel, eriti korda peatavite organite juures. Need noored eestis pidid küll julged olema et seisid avalikult eesti vabadusvõitlejate kõrval Pärnus kui ausammas avati. Nemad küll ei salga eesti mehi kes võitlesid eesti eest saksa mundris.
Kuidas see asi saab siis olla "mouth full of jackboot"?
Ehk EKN kirjutaks midagid selle kohta. EKNi Laas Leivat on ju hästi teadlik ja isamaalik isik.
Kuidas see asi saab siis olla "mouth full of jackboot"?
Ehk EKN kirjutaks midagid selle kohta. EKNi Laas Leivat on ju hästi teadlik ja isamaalik isik.
Äärmuslust oleks hiigla tore avalikule kaela määrida, kuid niisuguse korra all ise elada oleks hoopis teine lugu.
See jõuk tahab juutidele õige koha kätte näidata. Ja mis see meile teeb? Ega me pole juudid, ju.
Lood on nii et juudid on selle jõugu pikas vaenlastenimestikus esimene sissekanne ja sinna kuulub kõik kes pole valmis innukalt nende julmust sisse rajama. Tähendab, kõik kes ei sobiks värdlate näitusse.
Millegipärast Sulle see jõuk on ahvatlev. Olgu. Mul ainult kahju et Sulle on talumata et eestlane tahaks vabaduses elada, kus kõik saaks turvaliselt sepitseda elukorraldusi oma meelt mööda, kas või rumalaltki.
Pole mõtet mu sõnumile vastata. Parem mine nüüd ruttu ravile.
See jõuk tahab juutidele õige koha kätte näidata. Ja mis see meile teeb? Ega me pole juudid, ju.
Lood on nii et juudid on selle jõugu pikas vaenlastenimestikus esimene sissekanne ja sinna kuulub kõik kes pole valmis innukalt nende julmust sisse rajama. Tähendab, kõik kes ei sobiks värdlate näitusse.
Millegipärast Sulle see jõuk on ahvatlev. Olgu. Mul ainult kahju et Sulle on talumata et eestlane tahaks vabaduses elada, kus kõik saaks turvaliselt sepitseda elukorraldusi oma meelt mööda, kas või rumalaltki.
Pole mõtet mu sõnumile vastata. Parem mine nüüd ruttu ravile.
Mina ei ole selle organisatiooni liige või pooldaja nii et selle propageerimist siin foorumis ei saa ajada minu süüks. Ma ei olnud see kes nende aadressi postitas siin. Vaadates nende kodulehekülge see paistab olevat üks väike kamp skinheade, mitte mingi tõsine poliitiline liikumine.
Oli aeg ja mitte nii väga ammu kui eitasid holokausti. Kas ikka nii või?
I'm sick of the baseless accusations aimed at Peter-he has never given a hint that he is anything more or less than a squaky-clean human being and an absolutely reasonable democratically-minded citizen of the world. Show me the evidence that contradicts my opinion? Let it be said that Peter and I have distinctly different political points of view, but as G.K Chesterton once remarked, "I'll fight to the death for your right to think and say what you will". These are remarkable words, but the sort of words that numerous critics to this online newspaper dare not give any credence whatsoever.
Ma ei ole kunagi eitanud seda et juutidele tehti ülekohut Hitleri valitsuse poolt. Ma kritiseerisin kanada valitsust mis on arreteerinud ja vanglas hoidnud poliitilist dissidenti ilma kohtu otsuseta selle eest et ta on kirjutanud raamatuid tema arvamistest et holokaust on olnud liialdatud ja et enamik juute koonduslaagrites ei surnud gaasikambrites vaid hoopis surid nälga ja haigustesse pärast kui lääneliitlased olid pommitanud raudteid. Olen ikka veendunud et võitjad kirjutavad ajalugu ja see hirmutab mind kanadalasena kui raamatu kirjutamise eest võib minna vangi. Ma käisin ikka teismelisena demonstreerimas Nõukogude liidu vastu kellel olid siis niisugused seadused ja ma vaidleksin hea meelega kõigi teie vastu kes teeksid selles riigist ka samasuguse diktatuuri.
veiseväljaheited
Anyways, back to some of the subjects we were discussing. The series of articles by Parming was brought up and I remember that there was a lot of discussion about them in the Estonian community. Some readers may know more about them than me but I heard at the time that not everyone was happy that he decided to put them in the paper and some Estonians were worried that Meie Elu could even be branded as "revisionist" and "neo-nazi" because of them. I was told by someone who knew him that he put his job on the line and was willing to resign and take full responsibility if these articles caused any problems for the paper or our community.
Parming then died suddenly and his passing was a great loss to Canada's Estonian community.
Parming then died suddenly and his passing was a great loss to Canada's Estonian community.
After having read the commision report I see why EKN has tried to downplay it and didn't bother giving the website address. It is unfortunate that Estonia had its share of Quislings who were willing to aid the Nazis in their evil deeds, however, this happened everwhere else in the occupied lands.
It strikes me as well that the author of article is suggesting that the absence of criminal proceedings should be taken to mean that their were no or very few criminals despite overwhelming evidence of crimes having been committed. The problem with this line of reasoning is that the same rationale can be used by Soviet apologists and their deeds were even more horrific.
Its too bad that the commision was forced to use such a broad brush and honourable combattants feel they were unfairly lumped into the same kettle as criminals. I believe that it is widely accepted in the West that the Estonian SS division had a remarkably clean record, probably equalled only by that of divison Wiking which was composed of European volunteers. The behind the front line people are probably a different matter.
Also, I don't think that either Peter or Maxim are hooligans.
I suspect that Maxim in his own convulated way is trying to say to us that many of those poor Red Army grunts were also victims and should not be looked down upon as being second class humans.
Peter is to be commended for his principled stand on not letting politcal correctnes trample on basic individual freedoms.
Will somebody please translate the the short phrase above into English? It doesn't sound complimentary but I don't know exactly what it means.
It strikes me as well that the author of article is suggesting that the absence of criminal proceedings should be taken to mean that their were no or very few criminals despite overwhelming evidence of crimes having been committed. The problem with this line of reasoning is that the same rationale can be used by Soviet apologists and their deeds were even more horrific.
Its too bad that the commision was forced to use such a broad brush and honourable combattants feel they were unfairly lumped into the same kettle as criminals. I believe that it is widely accepted in the West that the Estonian SS division had a remarkably clean record, probably equalled only by that of divison Wiking which was composed of European volunteers. The behind the front line people are probably a different matter.
Also, I don't think that either Peter or Maxim are hooligans.
I suspect that Maxim in his own convulated way is trying to say to us that many of those poor Red Army grunts were also victims and should not be looked down upon as being second class humans.
Peter is to be commended for his principled stand on not letting politcal correctnes trample on basic individual freedoms.
Will somebody please translate the the short phrase above into English? It doesn't sound complimentary but I don't know exactly what it means.
For once-thank you for your kind words, Anonymous. I started to read your commentary, and foud some very interesting points you raise-I agree wholeheartedly with you, believe it or not...I also think that with all the various interesting aspects to tease out of this entire column, it looks as though the EKN has its work cut out to come up with an even better article next time round. All the best for the future.
Kommentaarid sellele artiklile on suletud.