Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
VanemadUuemad
"we are committed to an Estonian speaking camp "
Our son attended camp for his second year last summer. I come from a mixed marriage, my husband is Estonian.
Our son, learned to speak maybe four or five words in Estonian and he's probably forgotten them by now. But what he has definitely not forgotten, and in fact, what he has completely embraced is the notion that he is Estonian. He tells everyone he meets about his Estonian heritage, he now promotes all things Estonian whenever he can at his school.
I doubt very much that he will ever learn the language even if he attends camp again this year. But what the camp is very good at is instilling pride in all things Estonian. If nothing else, Joekaaru creates exceptionally positive goodwill toward Estonia. And I'm sure this will carry on into his later life, when, who knows, maybe he will do business with people in Estonia, or perhaps he will speak out in newspapers or write a letter to the Prime Minister when issues concerning Estonia may arise. Of if he becomes rich, then donate money to the camp.
I could not help but notice that during the weeks that my son is not welcome at Joekaaru, that camper numbers dwindle to, I'm not sure, but were there even 30 kids last year when only "true" Estonian children are welcome? A friend told me there were only two girls in the Big Girls room and three boys in the BIG Boys room. To me, that sounds like a waste, when there are so many children of mixed Estonian marriages in need of a reasonably priced place to enjoy the summer.
Certainly the language is important and should be promoted, but Joekaaru, I think, serves a better purpose when it caters to the largest number of children possible. It also serves its culture best by not creating two classes of Estonians. Besides, if children are really going to learn the language, I mean really learn it, they need to be taught it at home. And that is not going to happen in most mixed marriage situations. a
Our son attended camp for his second year last summer. I come from a mixed marriage, my husband is Estonian.
Our son, learned to speak maybe four or five words in Estonian and he's probably forgotten them by now. But what he has definitely not forgotten, and in fact, what he has completely embraced is the notion that he is Estonian. He tells everyone he meets about his Estonian heritage, he now promotes all things Estonian whenever he can at his school.
I doubt very much that he will ever learn the language even if he attends camp again this year. But what the camp is very good at is instilling pride in all things Estonian. If nothing else, Joekaaru creates exceptionally positive goodwill toward Estonia. And I'm sure this will carry on into his later life, when, who knows, maybe he will do business with people in Estonia, or perhaps he will speak out in newspapers or write a letter to the Prime Minister when issues concerning Estonia may arise. Of if he becomes rich, then donate money to the camp.
I could not help but notice that during the weeks that my son is not welcome at Joekaaru, that camper numbers dwindle to, I'm not sure, but were there even 30 kids last year when only "true" Estonian children are welcome? A friend told me there were only two girls in the Big Girls room and three boys in the BIG Boys room. To me, that sounds like a waste, when there are so many children of mixed Estonian marriages in need of a reasonably priced place to enjoy the summer.
Certainly the language is important and should be promoted, but Joekaaru, I think, serves a better purpose when it caters to the largest number of children possible. It also serves its culture best by not creating two classes of Estonians. Besides, if children are really going to learn the language, I mean really learn it, they need to be taught it at home. And that is not going to happen in most mixed marriage situations. a
totally agree with everything you said and I am truly pleased at your child's interest in "everything Estonian"..however, your last paragraph suggesting the elimination of Estonian Only weeks has another side to the story.
We lived outside the GTA when my children were young and teaching Estonian was very very challenging and required a daily effort and I mean EVERY day as much as possible.. This language instruction was especially hard since we both worked, spoke english with each other and the children were with english speaking care givers all day. Estonia was not yet free, so the option of sending them to Estonia for the summer did not exist either, and even if it did, we could not afford to go there with the whole family. Every summer when our children went to Joekaaru their Estonian language improved significantly. This was largely due to the fact that they were not allowed to speak English for the entire week. One year I noticed that their Estonian did not improve at all. I learned that a non-estonian speaking child was in their group. Any child will naturally default to their comfort language of english and that was what had happened.. I was upset at this situation because I had struggled so hard all year to teach my children Estonian while others had not and then just expected to get the Estonian immersion experience from the other children. Children do not understand how important it is and will never teach the language to non-Estonian speaking kids - they will just speak English too
I wanted my child's Estonian to improve by interacted with other children who's parent's also took the effort to teach Estonian.
I say keep at least one Estonian week. The week is not there to make anyone feel second class...it is there ONLY to IMPROVE the language skills and vocabulary of those who already have the fundamental basics in place because they are forced to speak it all day long.
We lived outside the GTA when my children were young and teaching Estonian was very very challenging and required a daily effort and I mean EVERY day as much as possible.. This language instruction was especially hard since we both worked, spoke english with each other and the children were with english speaking care givers all day. Estonia was not yet free, so the option of sending them to Estonia for the summer did not exist either, and even if it did, we could not afford to go there with the whole family. Every summer when our children went to Joekaaru their Estonian language improved significantly. This was largely due to the fact that they were not allowed to speak English for the entire week. One year I noticed that their Estonian did not improve at all. I learned that a non-estonian speaking child was in their group. Any child will naturally default to their comfort language of english and that was what had happened.. I was upset at this situation because I had struggled so hard all year to teach my children Estonian while others had not and then just expected to get the Estonian immersion experience from the other children. Children do not understand how important it is and will never teach the language to non-Estonian speaking kids - they will just speak English too
I wanted my child's Estonian to improve by interacted with other children who's parent's also took the effort to teach Estonian.
I say keep at least one Estonian week. The week is not there to make anyone feel second class...it is there ONLY to IMPROVE the language skills and vocabulary of those who already have the fundamental basics in place because they are forced to speak it all day long.
Thank you for your thoughtful letter, Kate. Inadvertently, you've touched upon a taboo subject -- language.
You have no way of knowing this first-hand, but; in fact, we don't have two classes of Estonian children: those that can and those that can't speak the language. Instead, there's a spectrum. At one end, we see your son, who knows a few words of Estonian. At the other, there are the people (now, 80-plus years of age), who speak Estonian better than they speak English. In between, there is every shade of grey.
There are a few, in the middle of that age-spectrum, who have made the effort to speak the language very well. Most, however, are satisfied if they can speak to the old folks. That isn't a crime, but; it's shameful that some of them might make your child feel unwelcome in our community.
The brilliant Italian writer, Luigi Barzini, expresses himself in English in a manner that should cause envy among native English-speakers. How is this possible? As a child, he spent his summers in the USA. There is a lesson there.
You have no way of knowing this first-hand, but; in fact, we don't have two classes of Estonian children: those that can and those that can't speak the language. Instead, there's a spectrum. At one end, we see your son, who knows a few words of Estonian. At the other, there are the people (now, 80-plus years of age), who speak Estonian better than they speak English. In between, there is every shade of grey.
There are a few, in the middle of that age-spectrum, who have made the effort to speak the language very well. Most, however, are satisfied if they can speak to the old folks. That isn't a crime, but; it's shameful that some of them might make your child feel unwelcome in our community.
The brilliant Italian writer, Luigi Barzini, expresses himself in English in a manner that should cause envy among native English-speakers. How is this possible? As a child, he spent his summers in the USA. There is a lesson there.
Shame on them who do not welcome your son!
You are right about the snobs up in Ontario.
The problem is that the Esto community is so
large that they have these groups that will discriminate against others. I've seen it first hand. Everyone knows that booze and smokes
and speaking english is what goes on when
nobody is watching. Who are they kidding? There are smaller Estonian
groups south of the border where everyone
is welcome because people have come to terms
with the fact that "mixed marriages" are inevitable.
Most of those parents bring their children to
Estonian school, camps, athletic events, ski trips, dance parties, the list goes on.
I met my wife at a camp when I was just 15.
It wasn't in Canada. We are in our 50's now
and we speak Estonian with parents and relatives but not to each other. Only in public
when we like to be discreet.
Send your son to the south, he will be welcomed. We are too small to have that kind
of snobbery.
The problem is that the Esto community is so
large that they have these groups that will discriminate against others. I've seen it first hand. Everyone knows that booze and smokes
and speaking english is what goes on when
nobody is watching. Who are they kidding? There are smaller Estonian
groups south of the border where everyone
is welcome because people have come to terms
with the fact that "mixed marriages" are inevitable.
Most of those parents bring their children to
Estonian school, camps, athletic events, ski trips, dance parties, the list goes on.
I met my wife at a camp when I was just 15.
It wasn't in Canada. We are in our 50's now
and we speak Estonian with parents and relatives but not to each other. Only in public
when we like to be discreet.
Send your son to the south, he will be welcomed. We are too small to have that kind
of snobbery.
Kate, this issue has come up time after time after time after time...
There is no easy solution.
As one commentator said, they worked hard at teaching their children Estonian and needed a venue for the child to practice it.
This is true for so many of my peers. It worked. Our kids speak the language at a functional (and some even better) level. … but what happened to their peers who did not speak the language? From what I’ve heard, many didn’t feel welcome and left the community.
As another commentator said, there is a huge area of grey, as far as language skills are concerned. This is totally natural, since we are now raising the second and even third generation of Estonians born abroad.
Our community as a whole is recognizing the wide spectrum of needs to keep this very fragile community vibrant and relevant. We need EVERY person of Estonian heritage to feel Estonian and to feel that they belong.
Jõekääru, the object of this discussion, has, in my opinion, done a great job in juggling the needs of the community and families.
The more a child is exposed to the language, culture and community, the more apt they are to pick up the language and feel like a total participant in our “village”.
If a child hasn’t had the opportunity to learn the language as a young child, they probably won’t even want to learn it when they get older, unless they become motivated to do so.
The trick then is to facilitate opportunities for these youngsters to become motivated to learn.
We are fortunate these days to have so many opportunities available to us. Here are some suggestions for children, youth and young adults:
Lasteaed (kindergarden) is offering a parent and tots program for the second year already, where parents (or grandparents, aunts, uncles, friends) may bring their toddlers to interact with other Estonian children and their parents. They participate in singing classes and informal play. They hear the language at the vital time in their development, when language is acquired. EXCELLENT new program!
Lasteaed (Saturdays) – classes for kids 3 – 7 who speak Estonian or who don’t yet speak it.
Täienduskool (Tuesday nights)– classes for kids 7 – 13 who speak Estonian or who don’t yet speak it.
Adult and teen classes for beginners & advanced (Tuesday nights)
Keskkool / Gümnaasium (Monday nights)– classes for graduates of Täienduskool
Esto 101 (beginners) & Esto 202 (advanced) (Monday nights, with the kk & g classes, with weekly folkdance and singing classes with the rest of the school) teens ages 13 – 18
Jõekääru & Seedrioru summer camps which children may attend for one week or many.
Guides & Scouts – weekly meetings, winter weekend camps and summer camps (one week)
In the past couple of years, the government of Estonia has been very proactive in encouraging young Estonians abroad to come to Estonia in the summer and attend language camps there. They offer scholarships for this. Info can be found here:
http://www.archimedes.ee/amk/i...
(The info is in Estonian. If you need help with this, please ask)
Sororities and Fraternities (for University students & grads) – there are many to choose from and they offer a whole new group of peers to get to know and develop lifelong connections with.
The National Estonian Foundation in Canada (Sihtkapital) has become very proactive in promoting Estonian activities for all ages in all areas of Canada. They put out a monthly newsletter of upcoming events: http://www.estonianfoundation....
One of their mandates is to encourage youth to participate in their heritage community.
Opportunities are available and plenty.
We will always need those among us who speak the language but we also need each and every person of Estonian heritage to feel proud of being Estonian.
There are only 1.1 million Estonians in the world.
Let’s not fight about this issue any longer and let’s work together to create a positive, inclusive society.
There is no easy solution.
As one commentator said, they worked hard at teaching their children Estonian and needed a venue for the child to practice it.
This is true for so many of my peers. It worked. Our kids speak the language at a functional (and some even better) level. … but what happened to their peers who did not speak the language? From what I’ve heard, many didn’t feel welcome and left the community.
As another commentator said, there is a huge area of grey, as far as language skills are concerned. This is totally natural, since we are now raising the second and even third generation of Estonians born abroad.
Our community as a whole is recognizing the wide spectrum of needs to keep this very fragile community vibrant and relevant. We need EVERY person of Estonian heritage to feel Estonian and to feel that they belong.
Jõekääru, the object of this discussion, has, in my opinion, done a great job in juggling the needs of the community and families.
The more a child is exposed to the language, culture and community, the more apt they are to pick up the language and feel like a total participant in our “village”.
If a child hasn’t had the opportunity to learn the language as a young child, they probably won’t even want to learn it when they get older, unless they become motivated to do so.
The trick then is to facilitate opportunities for these youngsters to become motivated to learn.
We are fortunate these days to have so many opportunities available to us. Here are some suggestions for children, youth and young adults:
Lasteaed (kindergarden) is offering a parent and tots program for the second year already, where parents (or grandparents, aunts, uncles, friends) may bring their toddlers to interact with other Estonian children and their parents. They participate in singing classes and informal play. They hear the language at the vital time in their development, when language is acquired. EXCELLENT new program!
Lasteaed (Saturdays) – classes for kids 3 – 7 who speak Estonian or who don’t yet speak it.
Täienduskool (Tuesday nights)– classes for kids 7 – 13 who speak Estonian or who don’t yet speak it.
Adult and teen classes for beginners & advanced (Tuesday nights)
Keskkool / Gümnaasium (Monday nights)– classes for graduates of Täienduskool
Esto 101 (beginners) & Esto 202 (advanced) (Monday nights, with the kk & g classes, with weekly folkdance and singing classes with the rest of the school) teens ages 13 – 18
Jõekääru & Seedrioru summer camps which children may attend for one week or many.
Guides & Scouts – weekly meetings, winter weekend camps and summer camps (one week)
In the past couple of years, the government of Estonia has been very proactive in encouraging young Estonians abroad to come to Estonia in the summer and attend language camps there. They offer scholarships for this. Info can be found here:
http://www.archimedes.ee/amk/i...
(The info is in Estonian. If you need help with this, please ask)
Sororities and Fraternities (for University students & grads) – there are many to choose from and they offer a whole new group of peers to get to know and develop lifelong connections with.
The National Estonian Foundation in Canada (Sihtkapital) has become very proactive in promoting Estonian activities for all ages in all areas of Canada. They put out a monthly newsletter of upcoming events: http://www.estonianfoundation....
One of their mandates is to encourage youth to participate in their heritage community.
Opportunities are available and plenty.
We will always need those among us who speak the language but we also need each and every person of Estonian heritage to feel proud of being Estonian.
There are only 1.1 million Estonians in the world.
Let’s not fight about this issue any longer and let’s work together to create a positive, inclusive society.
Kate. If you made arrangements to send your kid to Estonia, during his summer holidays, his Estonian counterparts would smother him with love. With him, they could practice their English and get better access to pop songs and computer games.
On the 24th of February (symbolically), we lost a great Estonian nationalist, Harri Mürk, at 54 years of age. Harri loved the Estonian language and spoke it mellifluously.
On that very same day, a very few in our community gathered together to celebrate Independence Day. It was a grim affair. Our community big-wig seems to take pride in speaking Estonian with a rustic's accent.
On that very same day, a very few in our community gathered together to celebrate Independence Day. It was a grim affair. Our community big-wig seems to take pride in speaking Estonian with a rustic's accent.
You smug basatard,
mine%@!#$&
mine%@!#$&
Thank you for your patience and your willingness to have your children go to Joekaaru. Please continue to do so for as many weeks as you can, the friendships are lifelong and the estonian community is a priceless treasure...even if some weeks of camp are intended to be totally in Estonian.
Some my happiest memories of childhood are connected to summer camp.
We never spoke any more Estonian than we had to. Still, the experience made me feel good about being Estonian. Still feel that way. I like our community, warts and all.
We never spoke any more Estonian than we had to. Still, the experience made me feel good about being Estonian. Still feel that way. I like our community, warts and all.
There are far too many different people here all using the same name - anonymous. Everybody should adopt a "handle".
You are right about the snobs up in Ontario.
The problem is that the Esto community is so
large that they have these groups that will discriminate against others. I've seen it first hand. Everyone knows that booze and smokes
and speaking english is what goes on when
nobody is watching. Who are they kidding? There are smaller Estonian
groups south of the border where everyone
is welcome because people have come to terms
with the fact that "mixed marriages" are inevitable.
Most of those parents bring their children to
Estonian school, camps, athletic events, ski trips, dance parties, the list goes on.
I met my wife at a camp when I was just 15.
It wasn't in Canada. We are in our 50's now
and we speak Estonian with parents and relatives but not to each other. Only in public
when we like to be discreet.
Send your son to the south, he will be welcomed. We are too small to have that kind
of snobbery.
The problem is that the Esto community is so
large that they have these groups that will discriminate against others. I've seen it first hand. Everyone knows that booze and smokes
and speaking english is what goes on when
nobody is watching. Who are they kidding? There are smaller Estonian
groups south of the border where everyone
is welcome because people have come to terms
with the fact that "mixed marriages" are inevitable.
Most of those parents bring their children to
Estonian school, camps, athletic events, ski trips, dance parties, the list goes on.
I met my wife at a camp when I was just 15.
It wasn't in Canada. We are in our 50's now
and we speak Estonian with parents and relatives but not to each other. Only in public
when we like to be discreet.
Send your son to the south, he will be welcomed. We are too small to have that kind
of snobbery.
I met my partner in camp too - also not in Canada.
We decided to raise our children in the Estonian language, culture and community. This is one of the reasons we chose to live in Southern Ontario, not the small US community where my partner is from. Our kids (now adults) are glad for it.
Our friends and family south of the border didn't bother to teach their kids Estonian. Their kids are blaming their parents for not teaching them. (and I'm not talking about "mixed marriages"!)
It's not the camps' nor the schools' or guides & scouts' responsibility - it's the parents!
As for us being snobs...
Ask the younger generation.
The young Estos (whether they speak it or not) have a blast together when they meet several times each year at Suvehari (Seedrioru), Spordipäevad (Lakewood), Suusapäevad (this year in Vermont) and various other events. They come together from New York, Baltimore, Lakewood, Connecticut, Boston, ... you name it.
Sounds like you're the one with the issues.
We decided to raise our children in the Estonian language, culture and community. This is one of the reasons we chose to live in Southern Ontario, not the small US community where my partner is from. Our kids (now adults) are glad for it.
Our friends and family south of the border didn't bother to teach their kids Estonian. Their kids are blaming their parents for not teaching them. (and I'm not talking about "mixed marriages"!)
It's not the camps' nor the schools' or guides & scouts' responsibility - it's the parents!
As for us being snobs...
Ask the younger generation.
The young Estos (whether they speak it or not) have a blast together when they meet several times each year at Suvehari (Seedrioru), Spordipäevad (Lakewood), Suusapäevad (this year in Vermont) and various other events. They come together from New York, Baltimore, Lakewood, Connecticut, Boston, ... you name it.
Sounds like you're the one with the issues.
As an outsider, i.e., not from Ontario, it doesn't seem like a question of snobbery, but rather a question of what one's goals and motivations are for attending camp. Is it to form friendships with others of Estonian heritage while speaking English or is it to form friendships with others of Estonian heritage while also having the opportunity to practice one's Estonian.
The camp goes out of it's way to accommodate both those who want an Estonian-only camp and those who want an English and they get critizised? Keep up the good work Jõekääru!
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