Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
VanemadUuemad
Riina Kindlam's comments are appropriate, well thought out and sincere. With this we have a healthy public debate about an issue that has been vexing for our community for many years. Folks, stay calm and focussed, and let's discuss the issue in a sensible Estonian manner.
It's unrealistic to expect teachers, camp counselors, and the like, to do a job that should begin at home.
To pass the language on to the next generation, first we must learn it ourselves. That's hard, but it's possible. Also, it's worth the effort.
To pass the language on to the next generation, first we must learn it ourselves. That's hard, but it's possible. Also, it's worth the effort.
Passion is great but in many communities in North America the reality is that there are hardly any children showing up never mind Estonian speaking children, further there are no scouts, no schools and not too many elders left either. Estonian-speaking organizers are in short supply and most are wearing too many hats. In short there is a desperation for people period.
If a community has a strong language base that is wonderful. Yes keep up the language. But it isn't the case generally in North America. Most organizations are suffering and losing a lot of ground every year. Facing the reality of demise is hard. We're rather like the optimist who falls out over a 20th floor balcony and at the 10th floor level says "See I'm still alright."
If a community has a strong language base that is wonderful. Yes keep up the language. But it isn't the case generally in North America. Most organizations are suffering and losing a lot of ground every year. Facing the reality of demise is hard. We're rather like the optimist who falls out over a 20th floor balcony and at the 10th floor level says "See I'm still alright."
Estonian organizations in North America have been wrestling with this issue for 30-40 years. How to keep the vitality of the language, the inclusiveness of the society and the numerical strength of the community has been an onging discussion at many forums. It's not for the lack of ideas, that the problems are often raised. It's the the inability of Estonians to reach a wide consensus. We're too stubborn, individualistic and perhaps too traditional/conservative to accept the unfamiliar. Then again, all societies are.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: estocana (05:41)
I ummed and ahed about posting your article Riina to my Facebook... I wonder why? Will I offend, too sensitive an issue, who would be interested... I always post Estonian stuff! I wonder why? Food for thought and worth revisiting.
How offended and betrayed we would feel if someone proclaimed to our grandparents or recent immigrants, that they are not truly Canadian because they can't speak English perfectly. Something about "do unto others"...
Being Estonian means being part of an ethnic group, not the citizen of a country. There are many citizens of Estonia who speak the language fluently and were born there but when you ask them their nationality they will say Russian, Gypsy, Ukranian, etc. but never Estonian. A Canadian is just a citizen of a geographic area and can belong to any one of a number of ethnic groups, some recognized by our government, some not. The break-up of Canada has been discussed for decades and if it happened, those of us in Toronto may become citizens of Ontario overnight. Anyone can be a Canadian if they become a Canadian citizen but you do not become Estonian, you are born Estonian.
Once again, displaying his admiration for simplicity, Peter stated “…you do not become Estonian, you are born Estonian.”
Here I will give him the benefit of the doubt, because he doesn’t say what that means. Could he be – innocently – just proposing a variation of the theme “are leaders born or made?” Or is he proposing something much more insidious, like if both your parents aren’t of Estonian ethnicity, then you are not Estonian?
The unfortunate logic of such thought is that if any of your direct ancestors (e.g. your great-great-grand father) were non-Estonian, then you are not one either. Thus, the late Michael Laidoner (Kindral Laidoner’s son) could not have been considered Estonian, because his mother (Maria Kruszewska) was Polish.
Or bringing things a little closer to home, take the case of the late Peeter Paunic. Everyone I know considered him Estonian (me included), despite the fact his father was Serbian. Or how about the case, where an Estonian couple living in Tallinn had adopted an orphan at birth from St. Petersburg? Despite the orphan growing up in an Estonian household, speaking Estonian, and living in Estonia, would Peter deny him Estonian ethnicity? Along with all of his subsequent progeny?
But I did say I would give Peter the benefit of the doubt, so I won’t bother asking him if he’s sure his blood-line is purely Estonian since the beginning of time.
Here I will give him the benefit of the doubt, because he doesn’t say what that means. Could he be – innocently – just proposing a variation of the theme “are leaders born or made?” Or is he proposing something much more insidious, like if both your parents aren’t of Estonian ethnicity, then you are not Estonian?
The unfortunate logic of such thought is that if any of your direct ancestors (e.g. your great-great-grand father) were non-Estonian, then you are not one either. Thus, the late Michael Laidoner (Kindral Laidoner’s son) could not have been considered Estonian, because his mother (Maria Kruszewska) was Polish.
Or bringing things a little closer to home, take the case of the late Peeter Paunic. Everyone I know considered him Estonian (me included), despite the fact his father was Serbian. Or how about the case, where an Estonian couple living in Tallinn had adopted an orphan at birth from St. Petersburg? Despite the orphan growing up in an Estonian household, speaking Estonian, and living in Estonia, would Peter deny him Estonian ethnicity? Along with all of his subsequent progeny?
But I did say I would give Peter the benefit of the doubt, so I won’t bother asking him if he’s sure his blood-line is purely Estonian since the beginning of time.
Toomas, in such a case that you are describing, i believe that that person can be Estonian if he or she identifies with our culture. In practical terms, very few children with only one Estonian parent will learn the language since it will not, except in very rare cases, be spoken at home. It is even more unusual for someone who is one quarter Estonian to speak the language. Besides not learning the language, other aspects of Estonian culture are usually not passed on as well.
By the way, I am a big fan of Kristina Shmigun. Her father never even bothered learning Estonian although he has lived in Estonia for years and always spoke to his children in Russian. Kristina is 100% Estonian in a cultural sense and sees herself as Estonian, not Russian so in my opinion she is one of us.
By the way, I am a big fan of Kristina Shmigun. Her father never even bothered learning Estonian although he has lived in Estonia for years and always spoke to his children in Russian. Kristina is 100% Estonian in a cultural sense and sees herself as Estonian, not Russian so in my opinion she is one of us.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Peter (08:31)
Thank you Peter... it wasn't obvious that you held the view described above. Well done.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Toomas Merilo (11:57)
Since Peter and I appear, for the first time, to be on the same wave-length, what else of substance can I say? We’ve come full circle… I wrote previously that we welcome with open arms anyone who identifies with us and Peter appeared to totally contradict that view. So for now there is peace.
However, since I was all wound up for another round – in anticipation – I found myself recalling a very humorous incident. It involved a “younger” individual from Australia… this goes way back, I believe, to ESTO’80 in Stockholm, Sweden.
Said individual lived far from the Estonian enclaves in Adelaide and Melbourne, but one day decided his Estonian roots made him Estonian and he felt motivated to learn the language via text books.
He apparently was very successful, because in written correspondence his Estonian was almost faultless. So with great anticipation, he made his way to ESTO’80 to meet with other Estonians from all over the world.
The result? Well, despite grammatically correct Estonian, he was incomprehensible… no one understood a word of what he was saying, no matter how agitated he got. And the converse was also true… he could not understand a word of what the other Estonians were saying, but when he wrote down his sentences, they were in perfect Estonian.
Now this might just be anecdotal, but it does have the ring of truth to it. And I believe it has some relevance to the discussion here.
However, since I was all wound up for another round – in anticipation – I found myself recalling a very humorous incident. It involved a “younger” individual from Australia… this goes way back, I believe, to ESTO’80 in Stockholm, Sweden.
Said individual lived far from the Estonian enclaves in Adelaide and Melbourne, but one day decided his Estonian roots made him Estonian and he felt motivated to learn the language via text books.
He apparently was very successful, because in written correspondence his Estonian was almost faultless. So with great anticipation, he made his way to ESTO’80 to meet with other Estonians from all over the world.
The result? Well, despite grammatically correct Estonian, he was incomprehensible… no one understood a word of what he was saying, no matter how agitated he got. And the converse was also true… he could not understand a word of what the other Estonians were saying, but when he wrote down his sentences, they were in perfect Estonian.
Now this might just be anecdotal, but it does have the ring of truth to it. And I believe it has some relevance to the discussion here.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Toomas Merilo (11:57), Toomas Merilo (14:28)
I have occasion to be with "Estonian" teenagers and those in their early 20's. Despite what they might be telling their grandparents or even their parents, when conversing with each other, they speak ENGLISH. Most of these kids have parents that both speak english, participate actively in the Esto community, etc. etc. None-the-less, when no-one's watching or listening, the conversation immediately turns to the language in which they were schooled. "It's easier and faster, " they tell me.
My personal experience is the same. Other Estos speak in English to me... why? I'm not sure. I was born in Canada, grew up here and received my schooling here. I was raised by my grandmother and went to kindergarten not knowing a word of English. Despite being fluent in Esto, I still THINK in english. It's just the way it is.
I'm all for supporting the language, but feel it's a terrible shame to exclude or make anyone not strong in their Estonian feel uncomfortable or unwelcome. I'd rather spend an "Estonian" evening speaking english than a miserable one speaking Estonian.
English speaking Estonians are welcome at my house.
My personal experience is the same. Other Estos speak in English to me... why? I'm not sure. I was born in Canada, grew up here and received my schooling here. I was raised by my grandmother and went to kindergarten not knowing a word of English. Despite being fluent in Esto, I still THINK in english. It's just the way it is.
I'm all for supporting the language, but feel it's a terrible shame to exclude or make anyone not strong in their Estonian feel uncomfortable or unwelcome. I'd rather spend an "Estonian" evening speaking english than a miserable one speaking Estonian.
English speaking Estonians are welcome at my house.
And what is wrong if an Estonian learns the German language and becomes a learned man, as long as he remains true to his people in his heart....I have been fortunate because it has been so with me and I am really proud that I can call myself an Estonian.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Anonymous (17:57)
So what should the guide and scout leaders do, just speak in Estonian? We get a lot of kids that cannot make it to Estonian school (they live too far), should they not be allowed to take part? I'd rather keep the culture alive, and speak both languages, than have it die out now. Because if you alienate those that don't speak Estonian, that's what you'll do.
Täitsa hästi kirjutatud, Riina. Tabasid naelapea pihta.
Riina got it exactly right when she wrote that when children are enrolled in French Immersion, they are thrown right into it and have to figure out how to swim. Why? Because the only way to truly learn any language is by being immersed in it. I know this from experience. I remember sitting on the rug on my first day of French Immersion, hearing the teacher speaking a language totally foreign to me, and looking around at the other kids, certain that I was the only one who didn't understand what she was saying. And so I learned French. I had to, and now of course I'm glad I did.
Certainly no one should be made to feel inadequate for their lack of proficiency in Estonian, especially in a country where English is the language spoken, heard and used in every other facet of life on a daily basis. As Riina mentioned, the fact that we have even kept Estonian alive in Canada as many as four generations later is astonishing. But it is the Estonian community's rigorous defense of the language - by continuing to speak it, the only way a language can be defended - that has made this possible. Estonia is a nation whose most consistent historical characteristic is that of being invaded and occupied - by the Danes, the Swedes, the Germans, the Russians. Aside from the fact that this more or less negates any possibility of there existing a genetically "pure" Estonian bloodline, it explains why we feel so strongly about having to defend what DOES unite us, what DOES make us unique, what DOES make us Estonian. More than anything else, I think, language defines us. Kaob keel, kaob rahvas.
I've lived in a small village in Italy for the last six years, and it being a tourist town where enough people have at least a rudimentary grasp of English, I could probably get by with a bare minimum of Italian. But if I expect this community to embrace me, to consider me as one of its own, and to truly feel a rightful part of it myself, I have to speak its language. It would be arrogant and naive of me to expect otherwise. And why would I? Learning a new language, any language, opens doors on a social level, but also on a cerebral level. It can only benefit you.
I suspect that the person who wrote the original Letter to the Editor only speaks one language. I say this because anyone who is bi- or multilingual understands inherently how easily a language can be overshadowed or made altogether obsolete when in competition with another, more dominant one. This is something that happens on an individual level as well as on a communal level, and as Riina said, it is a legitimate threat. Learning and maintaining a language takes hard work, consistency, dedication and a sense of purpose. This is especially true if you are the product of a mixed marriage or have yourself married someone from another culture. I know this from experience too, as I myself am only half-Estonian. Certainly, deciding not to take on such a commitment is a personal, and perfectly legitimate choice, and it is unfair and unfortunate to be judged for it. But it is equally unfair to accuse a community of exclusion and snobbery because it does not easily accommodate a refusal to recognize and respect its very raison d'être. Protecting and propagating a culture's language is protecting its essence, its heart, and it IS a battle that matters. It is the battle that matters most.
Riina got it exactly right when she wrote that when children are enrolled in French Immersion, they are thrown right into it and have to figure out how to swim. Why? Because the only way to truly learn any language is by being immersed in it. I know this from experience. I remember sitting on the rug on my first day of French Immersion, hearing the teacher speaking a language totally foreign to me, and looking around at the other kids, certain that I was the only one who didn't understand what she was saying. And so I learned French. I had to, and now of course I'm glad I did.
Certainly no one should be made to feel inadequate for their lack of proficiency in Estonian, especially in a country where English is the language spoken, heard and used in every other facet of life on a daily basis. As Riina mentioned, the fact that we have even kept Estonian alive in Canada as many as four generations later is astonishing. But it is the Estonian community's rigorous defense of the language - by continuing to speak it, the only way a language can be defended - that has made this possible. Estonia is a nation whose most consistent historical characteristic is that of being invaded and occupied - by the Danes, the Swedes, the Germans, the Russians. Aside from the fact that this more or less negates any possibility of there existing a genetically "pure" Estonian bloodline, it explains why we feel so strongly about having to defend what DOES unite us, what DOES make us unique, what DOES make us Estonian. More than anything else, I think, language defines us. Kaob keel, kaob rahvas.
I've lived in a small village in Italy for the last six years, and it being a tourist town where enough people have at least a rudimentary grasp of English, I could probably get by with a bare minimum of Italian. But if I expect this community to embrace me, to consider me as one of its own, and to truly feel a rightful part of it myself, I have to speak its language. It would be arrogant and naive of me to expect otherwise. And why would I? Learning a new language, any language, opens doors on a social level, but also on a cerebral level. It can only benefit you.
I suspect that the person who wrote the original Letter to the Editor only speaks one language. I say this because anyone who is bi- or multilingual understands inherently how easily a language can be overshadowed or made altogether obsolete when in competition with another, more dominant one. This is something that happens on an individual level as well as on a communal level, and as Riina said, it is a legitimate threat. Learning and maintaining a language takes hard work, consistency, dedication and a sense of purpose. This is especially true if you are the product of a mixed marriage or have yourself married someone from another culture. I know this from experience too, as I myself am only half-Estonian. Certainly, deciding not to take on such a commitment is a personal, and perfectly legitimate choice, and it is unfair and unfortunate to be judged for it. But it is equally unfair to accuse a community of exclusion and snobbery because it does not easily accommodate a refusal to recognize and respect its very raison d'être. Protecting and propagating a culture's language is protecting its essence, its heart, and it IS a battle that matters. It is the battle that matters most.
Hästi õeldud Kiiri!
Hästi kirjutatud Kiiri!
It seems this all began as less about an cultural attack, but about our individual experiences.
The issue of the churches was brought up in the discussion from the other article and serves as a great example. Many people, often Canadian spouses/partners of Estonians, genuinely appreciated the addition of English in the Christmas services. It was a warm, welcoming gesture.
My question is, did Estonians walk out of those services offended and outraged to hear English in addition to their own, or did they think "isn't it nice to see the seats filled in here once in a while?"
The issue of the churches was brought up in the discussion from the other article and serves as a great example. Many people, often Canadian spouses/partners of Estonians, genuinely appreciated the addition of English in the Christmas services. It was a warm, welcoming gesture.
My question is, did Estonians walk out of those services offended and outraged to hear English in addition to their own, or did they think "isn't it nice to see the seats filled in here once in a while?"
First of all, I find it offensive when you refer to non-Estonian spouses as "Canadian". I was born here and have a Canadian passport and am no less Canadian because I speak Estonian and want to go to an Estonian language Christmas service. The local Anglican church is much closer and I could go there if I wanted to hear it in English.
For centuries, Europeans listened to church services in Latin. I don't think that hearing a service and some Christmas carols in Estonian once a year should offend anyone. I love listening to opera and do not speak Italian.
And by the way, I am sure that the local Anglican church is just as empty, maybe more so since church attendance is declining in most mainstream Canadian churches.
For centuries, Europeans listened to church services in Latin. I don't think that hearing a service and some Christmas carols in Estonian once a year should offend anyone. I love listening to opera and do not speak Italian.
And by the way, I am sure that the local Anglican church is just as empty, maybe more so since church attendance is declining in most mainstream Canadian churches.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Peter (08:31), Peter (13:53)
Just to recap Peter, you're offended that they referred to Canadians as...Canadian. That is an insult to you. Okay folks, nothing to see here, the time frame for rational thought has passed.
I guess what you are saying is that all Canadians are equal but some (English Canadians) are more equal than others (Estonian Canadians).
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Peter (08:31), Peter (13:53), Peter (15:54)
I'm glad that Riina wrote this response, because she is a great example of what the original author was seeking out. I have met Riina on many occasions and have rarely met a person who is more of a champion of the culture. But the key here is that she does so in a way that encourages participation and immersion. My Estonian isn't perfect but she continues to speak enthusiastically regardless.
A few years back, an acquaintance attended Metsa U"likool, with a basic level of Estonian under his belt. They could have turned him away, as some of you seem to think appropriate, but instead they took the approach of "give it your best shot."
A lot of people *are* trying. Just don't shoot them down for being halfway there. Its just not productive, or decent.
A few years back, an acquaintance attended Metsa U"likool, with a basic level of Estonian under his belt. They could have turned him away, as some of you seem to think appropriate, but instead they took the approach of "give it your best shot."
A lot of people *are* trying. Just don't shoot them down for being halfway there. Its just not productive, or decent.
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