Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
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This plan has no reference to God the Father, His son Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit. It has lots of dollar signs but no sign of the Cross on which hung our salvation.
Umm, it's a business plan, which involves numbers.
As an ELCIC Lutheran church, there would be worship services centred around God the Father, His son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, with classical and contemporary services for the whole body of the church. And open the church up to members of the nearby community to worship, that visit but don't understand Estonian.
The traditional services in Estonian, though beautiful, attract up to 10 people, maybe 50 at Christmas.
The sister English congregation with a part-time contract minister was shut down for this very reason.
As an ELCIC Lutheran church, there would be worship services centred around God the Father, His son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, with classical and contemporary services for the whole body of the church. And open the church up to members of the nearby community to worship, that visit but don't understand Estonian.
The traditional services in Estonian, though beautiful, attract up to 10 people, maybe 50 at Christmas.
The sister English congregation with a part-time contract minister was shut down for this very reason.
You have made some good points about Christianity and what is needed in the church for continued success, from a religious point of view. This Plan, however, deals only with financial planning. At some point, we may indeed have to look at what we are doing as a church related to spiritual matters.
I appreciate your thoughtful response. But -- and bear with me -- a church is not a business. It is antithetical to business and Saint Mother Teresa's mission in Calcutta is one of the best examples of it. Developing viable congregations is done with a pastor-developer. But first, let us review the business model approach.
Legally, a church is a non-profit society. But when its revenues are derived from commercial sources the non-profit society draws the ire of CRA and the ARB and will probably lose its charitable status. It is one of many bad ideas. I won't touch on the other bad ideas.
Viable congregations in the Lutheran Church are established or re-enlivened by Lutheran Missions Boards. The best ones are in the US, especially the LCMS. There they train "pastor developers" who are then sent into the mission field (usually an urban area which has 100,000 population and no Lutheran congregation in the area. They invest 5 years of salary and expenses and meet monthly guideposts. At the end of the 5th year, if all guideposts are met, you'll have a viable congregation. Problem solved.
St. Peter's has a gold nest across the street: the High School. I'd look at that as a weekday lunch-hour, and/or after-school mission before Young Life or some other parachurch mob discovers it.
You've got the financial assets to do these. Get the mission in sight first, then the budget will follow. You don't want to rent out the facility to someone who'll take the opportunities from you. And you don't look for a part-time sunshine pastor or you're done for. Don't do things bass-ackwards.
Legally, a church is a non-profit society. But when its revenues are derived from commercial sources the non-profit society draws the ire of CRA and the ARB and will probably lose its charitable status. It is one of many bad ideas. I won't touch on the other bad ideas.
Viable congregations in the Lutheran Church are established or re-enlivened by Lutheran Missions Boards. The best ones are in the US, especially the LCMS. There they train "pastor developers" who are then sent into the mission field (usually an urban area which has 100,000 population and no Lutheran congregation in the area. They invest 5 years of salary and expenses and meet monthly guideposts. At the end of the 5th year, if all guideposts are met, you'll have a viable congregation. Problem solved.
St. Peter's has a gold nest across the street: the High School. I'd look at that as a weekday lunch-hour, and/or after-school mission before Young Life or some other parachurch mob discovers it.
You've got the financial assets to do these. Get the mission in sight first, then the budget will follow. You don't want to rent out the facility to someone who'll take the opportunities from you. And you don't look for a part-time sunshine pastor or you're done for. Don't do things bass-ackwards.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: W.Johanson (06:39)
The Frienzies claim the congregation is made up of "free spirits", that "there is a prevalent feeling weekly services are not required", the Pastor can be fired, and that the "Lutheran liturgical model" is not needed. Sounds like they just want to dump God and convert the Sanctuary into a "yoga studio". Who are these people? Feels like they're enemies out to destroy whats left of the congregation - not friends at all.
Someone said once that if there's no strife in the church, then you know the devil has won! It's encouraging to know the devil has not beat us - but the Frenzies will keep trying! We will stay true to our religion and keep fighting back against the Frenzies evil onslaught.
Someone said once that if there's no strife in the church, then you know the devil has won! It's encouraging to know the devil has not beat us - but the Frenzies will keep trying! We will stay true to our religion and keep fighting back against the Frenzies evil onslaught.
Not worth my while to answer - keep you your feeding frenzy! LOL
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Simple Congregation Member (07:10)
Thank you Simple for your comment... LOL
Same thoughts re using the non profit Church status as a for profit community centre - totally unethical and not what Puhm nor Taul would have ever dreamt would happen.
Among the friends are some who claim they are non believers and have taken communion only for the vote. And then there’s the conspirators.
Among the friends are some who claim they are non believers and have taken communion only for the vote. And then there’s the conspirators.
Ma ei tea, kas see kõlab õigesti. Andres Taul oli majandusklubi liige ja see noor kena Salumäe oli Viljandi hotellis müügijuht. Raha paneb rattad käima, kuhu poole kiriku vedur sõidab? Ikka vist tsentrumi poole. Kas äkki võtab tsentrumi jaam uue staatuse, nimelt kiriku omaduse, et riigitulu mitte maksta? Paneb ikka pea mõtlema…ja nii kena, sujuv õpetaja. Eeskujulik praost. Kuuleme edasi!
The plan proposed by the “Friends” is not viable. Most of their ideas (many of them quite strange) have not been costed at all. When the cost of everything that must be paid for to “save the church building” is estimated (even conservatively) it will be blatantly evident that they don’t know what they are doing. For example, they think they will save money by firing the pastor but hiring six managers to carry out their various endeavours. And removing the pews but not accounting for the cost of new seating. Their 16-page plan is full of ill thought-out proposals and wishful thinking.
They don’t know what they’re doing.
I encourage everyone to read their plan with a critical eye.
They don’t know what they’re doing.
I encourage everyone to read their plan with a critical eye.
The Friends state: "The congregation cannot justify a full-time pastor ($85,000) per annum"
Yet they propose the following professionals to head their Management Team:
* Physical Resources Manager - ($85,000) per annum + benefits
* Public Relations Manager - ($85,000) per annum + benefits
* Activities Manager - ($85,000) per annum + benefits
* Financial Manager - ($85,000) per annum + benefits
* Fundraising Manager - ($85,000) per annum + benefits
* Organizational Development Manager - ($85,000) per annum + benefits
When we apply Grade 6 arithmetic to this list, we see that firing the Pastor and replacing him with all of the above managers will not result in saving money!
Yet they propose the following professionals to head their Management Team:
* Physical Resources Manager - ($85,000) per annum + benefits
* Public Relations Manager - ($85,000) per annum + benefits
* Activities Manager - ($85,000) per annum + benefits
* Financial Manager - ($85,000) per annum + benefits
* Fundraising Manager - ($85,000) per annum + benefits
* Organizational Development Manager - ($85,000) per annum + benefits
When we apply Grade 6 arithmetic to this list, we see that firing the Pastor and replacing him with all of the above managers will not result in saving money!
These 'friends' are likely the same 'friends' who proposed all kinds of unrealistic, financially illiterate lunacy for the EH. That ship sailed so this is their new pet project. Everyone needs a hobby I guess.
What would you call people who sold their dreams to community for 18 mln and then switched to 41 mln a year later? Financial geniuses?
‘Financially literate’ has a child like naïveté that is almost adorable.
When you look at the folks who make up the ‘friends’, there is one common trait among the group: Rabid vanity.
They are devoid of even the most rudimentary level of financial expertise. What's disturbing (and a touch comical) is that they still whole-heartedly believe that they know what they are talking about.
It’s not at all surprising many of them were booted from the organizations/boards/clubs they used to belong to.
They are devoid of even the most rudimentary level of financial expertise. What's disturbing (and a touch comical) is that they still whole-heartedly believe that they know what they are talking about.
It’s not at all surprising many of them were booted from the organizations/boards/clubs they used to belong to.
Yes and your response is even more adorable.
...and if you read their "business plan" closely you will discover that these Frienzies are arrogant enough to think they can give the juhatus their marching orders!!!
It's right there in plain sight on their website!
"We have put together the elements of the plan, but it requires the executive to acknowledge that they are prepared to accept these elements before they are incorporated into a proposed budget."
"The executive council must take a proactive management approach to manage the physical assets that they have been entrusted to maintain."
Hmmm....
It's right there in plain sight on their website!
"We have put together the elements of the plan, but it requires the executive to acknowledge that they are prepared to accept these elements before they are incorporated into a proposed budget."
"The executive council must take a proactive management approach to manage the physical assets that they have been entrusted to maintain."
Hmmm....
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: atfosp (17:20)
You’re correct. It’s exactly the same group - they have difficulty accepting an unpleasant reality and are arrogant enough to believe that they can change it. The most unfortunate consequence of this stubbornness is that they have given false hope to many, thus further fracturing our Toronto eesti kogukond . This is unforgivable.
Appreciate the executive hearing the Friends out and allowing them to present their side.
I think the Friends are genuine in their aims to save the church, and questioning leadership and holding decisionmakers accountable is healthy if done constructively.
Unfortunately, this shell of a plan is too ambitious, and the anticipated returns are unrealistic. Hiring six middle managers to ramp up business for a property requiring too much work to make it rentable is an extreme and risky way to appease 10 weekly church-goers.
The plan doesn't properly address the necessary capital expenditures and demographic decline.
Depending on when the roof bill (+1.5 mil) comes due -- perhaps a more modest compromise would have been better. If the Friends cover a year of the lease after the Salvation Army deal ends- give them a year to prove what they can do. (ie. boost activity, turnout, solicit fundraising pledges for capital requirements, seek partnerships). Have them put their money where their mouth is and prove it can be done.
I think the Friends are genuine in their aims to save the church, and questioning leadership and holding decisionmakers accountable is healthy if done constructively.
Unfortunately, this shell of a plan is too ambitious, and the anticipated returns are unrealistic. Hiring six middle managers to ramp up business for a property requiring too much work to make it rentable is an extreme and risky way to appease 10 weekly church-goers.
The plan doesn't properly address the necessary capital expenditures and demographic decline.
Depending on when the roof bill (+1.5 mil) comes due -- perhaps a more modest compromise would have been better. If the Friends cover a year of the lease after the Salvation Army deal ends- give them a year to prove what they can do. (ie. boost activity, turnout, solicit fundraising pledges for capital requirements, seek partnerships). Have them put their money where their mouth is and prove it can be done.
To avoid confusion can we agree to stop using the word "church" and instead identify what we are trying to save; the "congregation" or the "building". They are distinct aims.
Could you please direct me to where in the proposal that states the hiring of SIX (6) "managers" @ $85K/annum + benefits?
If you have some inside source, please advise.
Otherwise, this isn't fake news it is plain and simple lying that a 6th-grade student could recognize.
If you have some inside source, please advise.
Otherwise, this isn't fake news it is plain and simple lying that a 6th-grade student could recognize.
" Acknowledge that the church needs a management
organization: We need to get organized:
1. Physical resources manager: Someone to manage the church property. Identify
the issues and develop a plan to resolve them. They must have the authority to
proceed with the work required with funding approval of the board and within
specified parameters.
2. Public relations manager: Someone to continuously author articles about the
activities supported by the church and its relevance in the community. They must
develop a viable plan to increase church membership.
3. Activities manager: Someone to organize events at the church and seek out
organizations to be part of the activities at the church.
4. Financial manager: Someone to promote financial sustainability initiatives.
Develop grant applications to fund the schedule of capital renovations.
5. Fundraising manager: Someone to develop the fundraising campaigns for
matching grant applications and other initiatives.
6. Organizational development manager: Someone to identify the structure and
resourcing needed to further the objectives of the church. Responsible for
developing a succession plan for the church council executive. (Note: legal
requirement for not-for-profit organizations restricts the tenure of executive
members to 3 successive terms) "
This is taken directly from "The Plan". These seem like new positions to fill. The Friends omitted any expected costs or details. 85k salary is a reasonable comparable lacking clear explanation from Friends.
organization: We need to get organized:
1. Physical resources manager: Someone to manage the church property. Identify
the issues and develop a plan to resolve them. They must have the authority to
proceed with the work required with funding approval of the board and within
specified parameters.
2. Public relations manager: Someone to continuously author articles about the
activities supported by the church and its relevance in the community. They must
develop a viable plan to increase church membership.
3. Activities manager: Someone to organize events at the church and seek out
organizations to be part of the activities at the church.
4. Financial manager: Someone to promote financial sustainability initiatives.
Develop grant applications to fund the schedule of capital renovations.
5. Fundraising manager: Someone to develop the fundraising campaigns for
matching grant applications and other initiatives.
6. Organizational development manager: Someone to identify the structure and
resourcing needed to further the objectives of the church. Responsible for
developing a succession plan for the church council executive. (Note: legal
requirement for not-for-profit organizations restricts the tenure of executive
members to 3 successive terms) "
This is taken directly from "The Plan". These seem like new positions to fill. The Friends omitted any expected costs or details. 85k salary is a reasonable comparable lacking clear explanation from Friends.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Stuck in the middle (10:58)
and to: Stuck in the middle
Nope don't see any $85K/annum and benefits associated with these positions.
By chance might these "positions" be voluntary managers?
or are these friends really that financially inept?
Nope don't see any $85K/annum and benefits associated with these positions.
By chance might these "positions" be voluntary managers?
or are these friends really that financially inept?
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: to: Critical Eye (12:51)
Well, you said it. Inept might be too harsh. Naive maybe?
The fact that we must speculate between these roles being filled by paid staff or "voluntary managers" demonstrates that the Plan is lacking in clarity in the least.
The Friends have had months to formulate a concrete plan. This plan is incomplete.
The fact that we must speculate between these roles being filled by paid staff or "voluntary managers" demonstrates that the Plan is lacking in clarity in the least.
The Friends have had months to formulate a concrete plan. This plan is incomplete.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Stuck in the middle (10:58), Directly from the plan (13:14)
They must understand that professional managers don't come cheap! Or is that giving them too much credit?
If the leading members of "the Friends" has not changed. Then there are 3 MBAs in the leadership.
I personally know 2 of these people for a few decades. Neither has ever given me cause to think that they are financially inept.
Additionally doesn't leadership state that the plan is a work in progress?
Perhaps all you naysayers should wait to raise your concerns until next Saturday's midday meeting?
Friends of St. Peter’s invite all members of the church to attend the next Täiskogu (congregational members) meeting at St Peter's Church, to be held on November 12th, 2022 at 1:00 p.m.
I personally know 2 of these people for a few decades. Neither has ever given me cause to think that they are financially inept.
Additionally doesn't leadership state that the plan is a work in progress?
Perhaps all you naysayers should wait to raise your concerns until next Saturday's midday meeting?
Friends of St. Peter’s invite all members of the church to attend the next Täiskogu (congregational members) meeting at St Peter's Church, to be held on November 12th, 2022 at 1:00 p.m.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: to: Critical Eye (12:51), to: Directly from the plan (13:58)
You're the one who alluded that they might be "inept" earlier.
Why should people wait until the meeting to point out flaws in the plan (or the plan to make a plan) ? The Friends should think of this forum as a much needed focus group and rather than get defensive- use it to improve their pitch. The onus is on them to present a clear proposal.
They get their shot on November 12th. They'd better have more than a "work in progress" to show if they expect to be taken seriously. Less business school jargon, and more clear and realistic financial models please.
Why should people wait until the meeting to point out flaws in the plan (or the plan to make a plan) ? The Friends should think of this forum as a much needed focus group and rather than get defensive- use it to improve their pitch. The onus is on them to present a clear proposal.
They get their shot on November 12th. They'd better have more than a "work in progress" to show if they expect to be taken seriously. Less business school jargon, and more clear and realistic financial models please.
A work in progress?
After two years of claiming they have a plan?
As was stated, $85K/year is a conservative estimate of a qualified professional manager's compensation in view of the fact that the average annual income in Canada for 2022 is $75,452 (Google it!!!) How can pointing this out be impolite?
Voluntary Managers??? Nobody is volunteering for anything much at Peetri kirik! They're even having difficulties getting volunteers out to make sandwiches!!!
After two years of claiming they have a plan?
As was stated, $85K/year is a conservative estimate of a qualified professional manager's compensation in view of the fact that the average annual income in Canada for 2022 is $75,452 (Google it!!!) How can pointing this out be impolite?
Voluntary Managers??? Nobody is volunteering for anything much at Peetri kirik! They're even having difficulties getting volunteers out to make sandwiches!!!
And one of there MBA’s secretly admitted that evening he found some of his colleagues’ ideas far-fetched.
Sorry “evening” should read “even he”
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: “Inside info” (08:14)
it was meant as a rhetorical question, and you took it out of context as the entire section is
"or are these friends really that financially inept?"
to save commentary until after the friends' presentation is polite. A better understanding of the terms for those who might be making assumptions would be cleared up and those
"Less business school jargon, and more clear and realistic financial models, please." could also be addressed.
"or are these friends really that financially inept?"
to save commentary until after the friends' presentation is polite. A better understanding of the terms for those who might be making assumptions would be cleared up and those
"Less business school jargon, and more clear and realistic financial models, please." could also be addressed.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: to: Critical Eye (12:51), to: Directly from the plan (13:58), to: Critical Eye et al (09:23)
The Friends have posted and mailed a 16 page business proposal that they must have felt confident enough about to distribute.
It is absolutely not impolite to ask questions or seek clarity prior to the meeting. Especially if the Friends are actively soliciting proxies prior to the meeting.
To deflect with "it's a work in progress", "wait for the meeting" and discouraging questions is weak.
It is absolutely not impolite to ask questions or seek clarity prior to the meeting. Especially if the Friends are actively soliciting proxies prior to the meeting.
To deflect with "it's a work in progress", "wait for the meeting" and discouraging questions is weak.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Focus (10:09)
Disagreeing with someone is acceptable.
Calling those you disagree with, names has never been polite.
Making things up, $85K/annum for "6 managers" is also impolite. Especially disparaging when it involves 3 MBAs who have led businesses.
But those are my opinions, sorry you couldn't save up the questions for after tomorrow's presentation and the Q&A.
Calling those you disagree with, names has never been polite.
Making things up, $85K/annum for "6 managers" is also impolite. Especially disparaging when it involves 3 MBAs who have led businesses.
But those are my opinions, sorry you couldn't save up the questions for after tomorrow's presentation and the Q&A.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: to: Critical Eye (12:51), to: Directly from the plan (13:58), to: Critical Eye et al (09:23), to: Focus & Critical Eye et al (10:30)
Umm, did you read the material? the meeting is next week. Is this the same attention to detail that the friends put into their “business plan”? The friends have been out floating these ideas for several months. I would have thought that would have been sufficient time to actually do the research to substantiate their proposals, given that there are purportedly three MBAs involved. I was in business for over 35 years and would not have lasted one month in any job had I ever delivered anything like this, even as a work in progress!
These MBAs led businesses alright…right into the ground. Hence they ‘were’ business owners. Exactly what we don't need here.
Letting the foxes into the henhouse to experiment with their non-charitable areligious yoga sanctuary would be the worst idea of them all. The notion of selling this beautiful building is indeed sad, but monkeying around with this crackpot scheme is depressingly farcical.
If we are being honest, and I mean this, the current board and minister cannot be faulted for trying to do the right thing over the better part of a decade. If you have been paying attention, they have been trying earnestly to engage the community. If anyone is to blame it is all of us in the community as a whole, for not heeding the call to attend services and volunteer our time.
Let the congregation of devotees survive and find a more suitably sized place to pray. There are plenty of other churches around that can be borrowed for a two-hour Estonian language Christmas service for the masses.
Of course, as in government, it is much simpler to yell and criticize in opposition and much harder and more tedious to govern.
I would applaud that the “Friends” at least tried to put together a vision instead of bellyaching, but it is hard to ignore that this group also levied a lot of vitriolic accusations against a board that, whatever you may think of their conclusions, ought to have reputations beyond reproach.
Is not pride the original sin? Most glaring to me is that this hodgepodge crew unfortunately has little to no self-awareness and common sense from what I can tell, at least not collectively. Perhaps some members of the group may take a moment to reflect and go for a long walk to clear their heads before pushing us towards a huge mistake.
If we are being honest, and I mean this, the current board and minister cannot be faulted for trying to do the right thing over the better part of a decade. If you have been paying attention, they have been trying earnestly to engage the community. If anyone is to blame it is all of us in the community as a whole, for not heeding the call to attend services and volunteer our time.
Let the congregation of devotees survive and find a more suitably sized place to pray. There are plenty of other churches around that can be borrowed for a two-hour Estonian language Christmas service for the masses.
Of course, as in government, it is much simpler to yell and criticize in opposition and much harder and more tedious to govern.
I would applaud that the “Friends” at least tried to put together a vision instead of bellyaching, but it is hard to ignore that this group also levied a lot of vitriolic accusations against a board that, whatever you may think of their conclusions, ought to have reputations beyond reproach.
Is not pride the original sin? Most glaring to me is that this hodgepodge crew unfortunately has little to no self-awareness and common sense from what I can tell, at least not collectively. Perhaps some members of the group may take a moment to reflect and go for a long walk to clear their heads before pushing us towards a huge mistake.
Amen to that!
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: “Inside info” (08:14), “Inside info” (08:18)
Well said. Thank you!
He who advances without seeking fame,
Who retreats without escaping blame,
He whose one aim is to protect his people and serve his lord,
The man is a jewel of the Realm.
Who retreats without escaping blame,
He whose one aim is to protect his people and serve his lord,
The man is a jewel of the Realm.
See olen mina.
The vote came in with the result in favour of closing the Columbarium. 68% voted in favour.
This is a clear majority. Since the meeting was in essence just about Peetri Kirik ceasing to offer "cemetery services" and not making any existential changes to the assets of the church, the vote in reality only had to be a 50/50 vote. The results of yesterday's vote clearly showed that an overwhelming majority supports the Executive. The Friends had a really low bar to jump over because the Executive decided to grant the Friends the opportunity to get just greater than 33.3% of the vote in order for their discussion paper to be accepted. The Friends failed to achieve even that because of the giant deficiencies in their plan. Now the Executive has been given the mandate to focus on the congregation's future and build a lasting legacy for the generations to come. Congratulations for a job well done!!!
And thanks to the Friends for helping achieve this milestone. Without them, the Congregation likely would not have appreciated how important it is to responsibly plan for the future.
This is a clear majority. Since the meeting was in essence just about Peetri Kirik ceasing to offer "cemetery services" and not making any existential changes to the assets of the church, the vote in reality only had to be a 50/50 vote. The results of yesterday's vote clearly showed that an overwhelming majority supports the Executive. The Friends had a really low bar to jump over because the Executive decided to grant the Friends the opportunity to get just greater than 33.3% of the vote in order for their discussion paper to be accepted. The Friends failed to achieve even that because of the giant deficiencies in their plan. Now the Executive has been given the mandate to focus on the congregation's future and build a lasting legacy for the generations to come. Congratulations for a job well done!!!
And thanks to the Friends for helping achieve this milestone. Without them, the Congregation likely would not have appreciated how important it is to responsibly plan for the future.
Just wow! What this congretation doesn't realize is that they lost the only thing of value, a beautiful building, a home built by Estonians, and a special resting place. It's the only reason people came. Wherever they go, it will never be the same. The end doesn't justify the means. The congregation will not last 3 years never mind 30.
The community is irretrievably divided by the horrible show that was served up on November 12. Just feel really sad for those people who have to have their loved ones moved. Congratulations to the Board and Minister and Keskus supporters by showing us what they are really like!
The community is irretrievably divided by the horrible show that was served up on November 12. Just feel really sad for those people who have to have their loved ones moved. Congratulations to the Board and Minister and Keskus supporters by showing us what they are really like!
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Simple Congregation Member (07:10), Simple Congregation Member (08:52)
What Simple Congregation Member doesn't seem to realize that the only thing of value that the congregation has is a loving God to worship. A pile of bricks and a bunch of wood is of no value by comparison. This is what our secular society has completely overlooked or forgotten. The Board is dedicated to serve the congregation and protect its sacred focal point. It has done just that against all those who would take that away. Obviously God protects His own. Thank heavens!
Churches are places of worship, dedicated to God, not piles of brick and wood. The sanctuary in St Peter’s is peaceful, beautiful and brings one closer to God- it was also filled with the prayers of countless Estonians during the Soviet occupation. It was also a place of unity for our community, where one could worship God in Estonian and feel the presence of God. Why must the Board and Madison people treat this concept with contempt? If bricks and mortar are not important, why is the Keskus so important? It will cost 40 million or more when done. And it is not a sanctuary. Who are we worshipping- God or ourselves?
Churches are indeed places of worship made of brick and wood. The sanctuary in St Peter’s is indeed peaceful, beautiful, and brings one closer to God. It is also filled with the prayers of countless Estonians during the Soviet occupation. It was also a place of unity for our community but no longer as we saw last Saturday. The congregation (which by the way is not the Keskus) voted overwhelmingly and undeniably that the Columbarium must be moved in order to move forward. Those Friends who instigated the strife and divided the community first as Friends of Eesti Maja and then as Friends of St. Peter's will (and in reality already have) walk away and likely never be seen in church again. So that is now water under the bridge. The majority will stay on and rebuild in a new home. Any further discussion about the bricks and wood is now, finally, a waste of digital virtual ink.
Strife was instigated by the people who divide and conquer by selling our assets. It’s our fault too- our congregants should have attended services and given donations. Then there would have been no way for these people to win, no need for glass boxes and silly posturing.
Our community will never be the same. Period. And that is very sad. And we will never forget.
Our community will never be the same. Period. And that is very sad. And we will never forget.
Wrong! Strife was not instigated by those who determined the asset sale would save the congregation. The possibility of selling was simply presented 10 years ago. All that happened was... crickets. The importance of congregants stepping up to the plate was increasingly pointed out at congregational meetings... crickets.
Then when finally the SHTF, the congregation chose to start looking for a buyer.
Well, out of nowhere the Friends started posting articles on this site that clearly were to foment strife. And it worked.
Thanks to the Friends, our community will never be the same. And that is very sad indeed. But the congregation will be moving forward into the future with its head held high and indeed soon all will be forgotten.
Then when finally the SHTF, the congregation chose to start looking for a buyer.
Well, out of nowhere the Friends started posting articles on this site that clearly were to foment strife. And it worked.
Thanks to the Friends, our community will never be the same. And that is very sad indeed. But the congregation will be moving forward into the future with its head held high and indeed soon all will be forgotten.
I have many loved ones in the columbarium and I am not sad at all to move them. If anything I am relieved. They deserve a sacred, peaceful space.
Armukesed, miks te riidlete! Nii ei tule kunagi head tulemused. Meie esivanemate põrmusid ei tohi segada. Hinged on novembris ikka liikvel ja pahandavad teie jutu peale. Küsige abi ōpetaja käest Eestis, kuidas tuleb hingedega ümber käia. Ei see kallis õpetaja, kes ligi elab, tea sellisest loost kopka eest ka midagi! Ets kardab vist öösel üksi olla, tahab neid paigutada. Pole lihtne, ärgu tehku!
Nüüd, et kolumbaariumi ja hoone müügi küsimused ja vaidlused on ühel pool, saab lõpuks tõsistele probleemidele takistamatult keskenduda!
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