Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
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If you want to be welcomed back into a organization you dropped out by YOUR own choice, don't expect your return to be easy especially if you offend most everyone around by making inane or offensive comparison's as you have done.
Your type of "baiting" journalism is unproductive. I'm contemplating not renewing my subscription and giving the the equivalent amount to Siht Kapital instead. At least I'll get a tax deduction instead of getting ill reading this drivel. Although you never come out and compare the Estonian Society to Marxism and Communism you allude to it.
You may share my heritage but you do not share my background, as you admitted that you denounced yours in a previous article. Dropping out was YOUR choice. Not teaching your children about your heritage was YOUR choice. I for one do NOT feel a bond to you.
French immersion really works if the parent(s) practice French at home. Latvian by your own admission only worked because it was practiced at home. So what if you had to travel, weren't you home on the weekends with kids. What about the time you weren't traveling, no time for the kids then either. What about driving to and from hockey/skating/music lessons ... still not around or no time of and of course not during the holidays or during vacation time.
Kids learn what is made enjoyable for them (who's will are you refering to the parents or the child's??) perhaps your children had the stronger will?
I'm one of these 40+ guys that still reads the paper front to back. In fact we receive the Vaba Eesti Sôna. My family received both Toronto Esto papers when there were two. We even read numurous ones on the net.
A number of years ago you made a choice. Be a man and stick up for that choice! Don't expect Estonians for not being accepting of you if you compare them to Nazi's, Marxists, Communist's or Facists or telling us or Toronto enclave is dying ESPECIALLY if you haven't spent any time here recently. Were you here for the TEüP 50th anniversary? I guess then you didn't see a vibrant community function.
Perhaps you've seen the sign some people put up by their pool..
we don't swim in your toilet, please don't pee in our pool. Your words make me feel as if you've peed in ours.
Your type of "baiting" journalism is unproductive. I'm contemplating not renewing my subscription and giving the the equivalent amount to Siht Kapital instead. At least I'll get a tax deduction instead of getting ill reading this drivel. Although you never come out and compare the Estonian Society to Marxism and Communism you allude to it.
You may share my heritage but you do not share my background, as you admitted that you denounced yours in a previous article. Dropping out was YOUR choice. Not teaching your children about your heritage was YOUR choice. I for one do NOT feel a bond to you.
French immersion really works if the parent(s) practice French at home. Latvian by your own admission only worked because it was practiced at home. So what if you had to travel, weren't you home on the weekends with kids. What about the time you weren't traveling, no time for the kids then either. What about driving to and from hockey/skating/music lessons ... still not around or no time of and of course not during the holidays or during vacation time.
Kids learn what is made enjoyable for them (who's will are you refering to the parents or the child's??) perhaps your children had the stronger will?
I'm one of these 40+ guys that still reads the paper front to back. In fact we receive the Vaba Eesti Sôna. My family received both Toronto Esto papers when there were two. We even read numurous ones on the net.
A number of years ago you made a choice. Be a man and stick up for that choice! Don't expect Estonians for not being accepting of you if you compare them to Nazi's, Marxists, Communist's or Facists or telling us or Toronto enclave is dying ESPECIALLY if you haven't spent any time here recently. Were you here for the TEüP 50th anniversary? I guess then you didn't see a vibrant community function.
Perhaps you've seen the sign some people put up by their pool..
we don't swim in your toilet, please don't pee in our pool. Your words make me feel as if you've peed in ours.
I read your comments and I am at a loss to understand where your rage comes from. I can only guess, that you know Peter Bush personally and that there is some aspect of him that you dislike to the depth of your being, because his commentary does not warrant this loathing. I, like you, am doing everything in my power, to bring up my child as an Estonian speaking person in Canada, because I have these skills and I want to give my child all that I have to offer. But I feel nothing regarding Peter Bush. He does not offend me. He made his choice and I'm fine with that. If his son wants to learn Estonian, then he is free to move to Estonia to learn the language. I know other non-speakers who have done that, one in particular has become fluent and is working there. So it's not necessarily a lost cause for "team Estonia."
I did find Peter's Communism comparison in left field, but, again, it doesn't bother me. He is free to speak his mind.
If there is no other reason why you should dislike Peter, i.e. he's an axe-murderer, then I would say learn to forgive Peter for your own well-being and welcome your fellow Estonian 'home'. Life is really too short for this type of pettiness.
Peter, please keep writing your stories.
I did find Peter's Communism comparison in left field, but, again, it doesn't bother me. He is free to speak his mind.
If there is no other reason why you should dislike Peter, i.e. he's an axe-murderer, then I would say learn to forgive Peter for your own well-being and welcome your fellow Estonian 'home'. Life is really too short for this type of pettiness.
Peter, please keep writing your stories.
LTF,
Now that "he has the time" he wants to be an Estonian again. How convenient!
You talk about being forgiving, the man you ask me to forgive can't even forgive let alone try to understand a close relative (probably a zealot Estonian, now most of us have at least one in our family and they are the way they are probably due to some trauma during the war or so was the case in my family but I degress) from an act 20/30 years ago. Most Estonians who watched "My Greek Wedding" can relate to some if not all of the antics, unfortunately PB turns a review of the movie into a diatribe about his experiences, talk about living in the past.
He explains about how big of a chore it was to get his wife to attend this past summer's laulu päev at Seedrioru. Talk about tolerance/understanding his wife didn't want to make the 5 hour drive to Seedrioru. (no mention about wether he or his wife enjoyed themselves or not. This was one of the best turn outs and profitable Suvihari's Seedrioru has put on in years. From what I've heard from others it was great success and well received.
It's really great to read he doesn't know if the uncle is alive or dead but he does wants to get back to his roots now that he has the time, how convenient!
I and my family have always been here and active, trying to make the culture enjoyable for those that follow, but here's the shocker sometimes the tasks are not easy or convenient given our jobs and other commitments.
PB (and others) for whom the Estonian community isn't convenient, who are you to now criticize those who do the work and volunteer their time (while you had dropped out).
Instead of giving your "opinion" (although no-one has asked for it)about how the culture is dying out, how about getting involved and I'm talking about more than just a 5 hour drive to Elora once a year but actually working cooperatively with other Estonians in furthering our culture (and no I'm NOT suggesting you arrange another "Family Vacation" to Estonia either) but an actual function. Until then please try to stay away from writing about your opinions (or at least do some practical research within the Estonian community rather than 20 year old books).
Now that "he has the time" he wants to be an Estonian again. How convenient!
You talk about being forgiving, the man you ask me to forgive can't even forgive let alone try to understand a close relative (probably a zealot Estonian, now most of us have at least one in our family and they are the way they are probably due to some trauma during the war or so was the case in my family but I degress) from an act 20/30 years ago. Most Estonians who watched "My Greek Wedding" can relate to some if not all of the antics, unfortunately PB turns a review of the movie into a diatribe about his experiences, talk about living in the past.
He explains about how big of a chore it was to get his wife to attend this past summer's laulu päev at Seedrioru. Talk about tolerance/understanding his wife didn't want to make the 5 hour drive to Seedrioru. (no mention about wether he or his wife enjoyed themselves or not. This was one of the best turn outs and profitable Suvihari's Seedrioru has put on in years. From what I've heard from others it was great success and well received.
It's really great to read he doesn't know if the uncle is alive or dead but he does wants to get back to his roots now that he has the time, how convenient!
I and my family have always been here and active, trying to make the culture enjoyable for those that follow, but here's the shocker sometimes the tasks are not easy or convenient given our jobs and other commitments.
PB (and others) for whom the Estonian community isn't convenient, who are you to now criticize those who do the work and volunteer their time (while you had dropped out).
Instead of giving your "opinion" (although no-one has asked for it)about how the culture is dying out, how about getting involved and I'm talking about more than just a 5 hour drive to Elora once a year but actually working cooperatively with other Estonians in furthering our culture (and no I'm NOT suggesting you arrange another "Family Vacation" to Estonia either) but an actual function. Until then please try to stay away from writing about your opinions (or at least do some practical research within the Estonian community rather than 20 year old books).
...nice doggie... (the sequel)
Here! Here!
About time someone took on the naysayers (and nay doers)!!!
About time someone took on the naysayers (and nay doers)!!!
I don't think that we have to be so hard on Peeter, I agree that he and others like him are part of the problem in our community but in fairness to him he does live in an area where there are few Estonians and his wife does not understand the language so he is a prime example of someone whose children are very unlikely to learn Estonian. We should however give him credit for getting such a discussion going as we have probably accomplished more in the last few days here in this forum than some of our organizations have in a few decades.
I know that my ideas are on the fringe of our community and will probably stay there but I would really like to hear some constructive ideas from those Estos who do not agree with me but would also like to keep our language and culture alive. Do you think that we have much of a chance in Toronto and some other Canadian cities? Do you think that our young people will continue to speak Estonian when their education is in English? Will eestlus survive as a hobby or will we soon be like the Irish or Scottish who read poetry and sing songs in their almost dead Gaelic language that few understand and even fewer speak fluently? Are there other ethnic groups here or elswere that we can learn from? Now that so many of us have gotten together in front of our computers to discuss these issues we need to come up with some real solutions and impliment them.
I know that my ideas are on the fringe of our community and will probably stay there but I would really like to hear some constructive ideas from those Estos who do not agree with me but would also like to keep our language and culture alive. Do you think that we have much of a chance in Toronto and some other Canadian cities? Do you think that our young people will continue to speak Estonian when their education is in English? Will eestlus survive as a hobby or will we soon be like the Irish or Scottish who read poetry and sing songs in their almost dead Gaelic language that few understand and even fewer speak fluently? Are there other ethnic groups here or elswere that we can learn from? Now that so many of us have gotten together in front of our computers to discuss these issues we need to come up with some real solutions and impliment them.
Peeter the answer to your question is two fold and simple ..... get ACTIVE.
Plain and simple. If you don't like the way things are being run, get ACTIVE. If there isn't the proper alternative, get ACTIVE.
Second part is be committed to the undertaking.
You're right we shouldn't be hard on Peeter Bush. He is just waffling on the choices HE MADE a number of decades ago and now seems to be in need of being spoon fed answers on how to change those choices.
Peeter, yes you are on the fringe no question about that.
I'm tried about reading what the fringe and the dropouts and nay sayers (the ones that say that there's no place for the language in the "western world") may have opinion or think. I'm interested in reading about those who are ACTIVE and PARTICIPATING in the community.
PB how frequently do you visit the Estonian Embassy? Do they have your phone number should the staff need help in putting on a function or billiting visiting Estonians????? If yes then my hat is off to you ... if not why not ???
What about the Latavian embassy (same questions?)
As far as credit is concerned the credit should really be going to those who are active, those who put on the schools, scouts, guides, choirs, folk dancing, summer camps etc. Not to those who insult those who do and give their opinions without being active.
Eestlus will not survive without committed participants, those who are willing to give up their Saturday morning tennis and squash games to bring their children to functions. WWE need people willing to drive in after a hard of work instead of flaking out in front of the tube. If it's difficult car pool or heaven forbid take public transit.
Perhaps part of the big picture problem is that there are more diversions for us and our children than what our parents and we had has children.
What I can't understand Peeter is what is so wrong with the current options that are not to your liking? Have you ever thought that the problem might be that your thinking is so "out there" and different from the norm ?
Plain and simple. If you don't like the way things are being run, get ACTIVE. If there isn't the proper alternative, get ACTIVE.
Second part is be committed to the undertaking.
You're right we shouldn't be hard on Peeter Bush. He is just waffling on the choices HE MADE a number of decades ago and now seems to be in need of being spoon fed answers on how to change those choices.
Peeter, yes you are on the fringe no question about that.
I'm tried about reading what the fringe and the dropouts and nay sayers (the ones that say that there's no place for the language in the "western world") may have opinion or think. I'm interested in reading about those who are ACTIVE and PARTICIPATING in the community.
PB how frequently do you visit the Estonian Embassy? Do they have your phone number should the staff need help in putting on a function or billiting visiting Estonians????? If yes then my hat is off to you ... if not why not ???
What about the Latavian embassy (same questions?)
As far as credit is concerned the credit should really be going to those who are active, those who put on the schools, scouts, guides, choirs, folk dancing, summer camps etc. Not to those who insult those who do and give their opinions without being active.
Eestlus will not survive without committed participants, those who are willing to give up their Saturday morning tennis and squash games to bring their children to functions. WWE need people willing to drive in after a hard of work instead of flaking out in front of the tube. If it's difficult car pool or heaven forbid take public transit.
Perhaps part of the big picture problem is that there are more diversions for us and our children than what our parents and we had has children.
What I can't understand Peeter is what is so wrong with the current options that are not to your liking? Have you ever thought that the problem might be that your thinking is so "out there" and different from the norm ?
I have heard that Ukrainian youth are organized and active. I remember that the Latvians and maybe even the Lithuanians had a good contingent of youth who, not only were active in traditional functions, but created and organized their own activities i.e. Baltic Bashes, groups attending ‘Black Ribbon Day’, etc. They always were really excited about what they were doing, more so than the Estos with similar activities (many of our activities are somewhat regimented, cookie-cutter, we participate because it’s our duty and we fail to get creative). And the Jewish organizations seem to be doing something right (yes, I know, they have money, but we’re not so poor either). I’ve read in the Canadian newspapers that among other successful activities, Canadian Jews send youth to experience life in Israel with the help of their well-supported foundations.
How things should unfold is that our community needs to really want to find out how the other ethnic groups tick. A person passionate about the issue should be appointed/elected by a respected central organization to meet with reps at i.e. three chosen organizations from other non-Estonian ethnic communities. That person then reports back to the organization, which then publishes observations and recommendations to the community via the newspaper as well as at a well-publicized public debate. Ideas are implemented.
Well-planned communication with the public is key. The public debate should be organized and implemented in both Estonian and English. Let’s hear from non-Estonian speaking Estos at the public forum, if they are interested.
How things should unfold is that our community needs to really want to find out how the other ethnic groups tick. A person passionate about the issue should be appointed/elected by a respected central organization to meet with reps at i.e. three chosen organizations from other non-Estonian ethnic communities. That person then reports back to the organization, which then publishes observations and recommendations to the community via the newspaper as well as at a well-publicized public debate. Ideas are implemented.
Well-planned communication with the public is key. The public debate should be organized and implemented in both Estonian and English. Let’s hear from non-Estonian speaking Estos at the public forum, if they are interested.
Do you know who started Black Ribbon Day??
Markus Hess - an Estonian
Markus Hess - an Estonian
Mr. Anonymous,
From your comments, I have deduced that you are a member of one of the largest and, might I add, most active Esto families in Canada.
All of the adults in the clan are active in our community in one way or another. All of the children, including those who have one non-Esto parent, speak Estonian. They travel long distances many times a week to bring their kids to Esto school, Gaidid, Skaudid, etc. etc.
Your family has earned the right to be outspoken on the issues being discussed here.
Thanks to your "generation 'A'" for raising such hard-working and commited individuals!
From your comments, I have deduced that you are a member of one of the largest and, might I add, most active Esto families in Canada.
All of the adults in the clan are active in our community in one way or another. All of the children, including those who have one non-Esto parent, speak Estonian. They travel long distances many times a week to bring their kids to Esto school, Gaidid, Skaudid, etc. etc.
Your family has earned the right to be outspoken on the issues being discussed here.
Thanks to your "generation 'A'" for raising such hard-working and commited individuals!
Unfortunately I am only a long time acquaintance (and admirer) of said family.
Moi aussi!
The discussion here and in reaction to the previous article on the imminent demise of the estonian paper in Sweden seems to be going around in circles.
1. The article(s) point out the obvious decline in many expatriate estonian organizations etc.
2. The "super-esto's" react with anger, personal attacks and chest beating about their wonderful efforts at remaining estonian
3. Others react by either agreeing with the writer (PBush) or by asking others to help the situation by getting active or by always speaking estonian etc.
4. Some others offer useful suggestions about how one might try to realistically tackle the issues of decline in the expatirate estonian society.
It is the suggestions of this last group that have the most potential to at least have an effect. Lets face it, the majority of people of estonian heritage (particularly 2nd & 3rd generation-mixed marriages etc) either no longer participate in local estonian society or are at best "part-time" estonians. Many no longer speak or have never learned to speak estonian. Many have 'voted with their feet' and are no longer involved or interested.
The question is; is there a place for this very large group of people of estonian heritage within current expatriate estonian society?
Some would say no (we will become a Rotary club). Maybe this is true, and it is not worth the effort to involve them. Many of the distanced people of estonian heritage don't care anyway and won't be back no matter what is done to entice them. But the need to explore any potential involvement by this large group should not be overlooked.
However, I suspect that as time goes on, local esto society will continue to evolve, perhaps like that of other, relatively assimilatable ethnic groups such as Germans, Scandinavians etc. who may have small strong core adherants to the culture/language, but are mostly made up of people of that heritage who are at best 'part-time'.
This cannot be prevented by rallying cries to be more strongly involved in local society. Most people are as involved/uninvolved as they want to be and great changes cannot occur by "willpower" or efforts of a relative few, much as we may admire and applaud them.
Perhaps if we accept the inevitability of this evolution we can continue to maintain those institutions that are most important to us.
Those most strongly committed to keeping esto society will not like to hear this. I hope they are right, but believe that despite the best intentions, they are not. Being of estonian heritage is at best a hobby for most. Lets do what we can with that in mind.
1. The article(s) point out the obvious decline in many expatriate estonian organizations etc.
2. The "super-esto's" react with anger, personal attacks and chest beating about their wonderful efforts at remaining estonian
3. Others react by either agreeing with the writer (PBush) or by asking others to help the situation by getting active or by always speaking estonian etc.
4. Some others offer useful suggestions about how one might try to realistically tackle the issues of decline in the expatirate estonian society.
It is the suggestions of this last group that have the most potential to at least have an effect. Lets face it, the majority of people of estonian heritage (particularly 2nd & 3rd generation-mixed marriages etc) either no longer participate in local estonian society or are at best "part-time" estonians. Many no longer speak or have never learned to speak estonian. Many have 'voted with their feet' and are no longer involved or interested.
The question is; is there a place for this very large group of people of estonian heritage within current expatriate estonian society?
Some would say no (we will become a Rotary club). Maybe this is true, and it is not worth the effort to involve them. Many of the distanced people of estonian heritage don't care anyway and won't be back no matter what is done to entice them. But the need to explore any potential involvement by this large group should not be overlooked.
However, I suspect that as time goes on, local esto society will continue to evolve, perhaps like that of other, relatively assimilatable ethnic groups such as Germans, Scandinavians etc. who may have small strong core adherants to the culture/language, but are mostly made up of people of that heritage who are at best 'part-time'.
This cannot be prevented by rallying cries to be more strongly involved in local society. Most people are as involved/uninvolved as they want to be and great changes cannot occur by "willpower" or efforts of a relative few, much as we may admire and applaud them.
Perhaps if we accept the inevitability of this evolution we can continue to maintain those institutions that are most important to us.
Those most strongly committed to keeping esto society will not like to hear this. I hope they are right, but believe that despite the best intentions, they are not. Being of estonian heritage is at best a hobby for most. Lets do what we can with that in mind.
To Anonymous: I do not understand how the death of our community and its absorbtion by the Anglos is "evolution". I am getting tired of making the same points in my comments but the English language was forced on us due to a very powerful Anglo lobby which influenced government policy.
Other Europeans had their own school boards until they were banned by our government. We had German, Ukranian, Polish, Lithuanian and other school boards in Western Canada that were set up to maintain the languages of these ethnic groups. there was also an Estonian school in Eckville, Alberta. The situation in B.C. got so bad in the 1950s when children of Russian immigrants were removed from their homes and forced to attend English schools that parents retaliated by burning the schools. The government in turn put many of these parents in camps. Yes, this happened in Canada. One reader commented on why I am writing about these embarassing things that happened in the past and thought I sounded like a nut for writing about the Orange Order which was behind all this but it is obvious that this spirit lives on, even with some of the Anglophiles here who seem to take pleasure in the death of our community.
We have always had such problem people in Estonian society, even in Estonia before the war there were those who favoured the German or Russian languages over Estonian.
I do not think that there is any chance of us preserving our identity here unless we have control over our childrens' education. This should be our first priority. Everything else is secondary. Times have changed and now the once-powerful English Canadian lobby is a shadow of it's former self and there is no way that they can deny us this right any longer.
I totally agree with the comment that we should work together with other ethnic groups who share our concerns ind interests. Imagine what our community would be like now if we had all worked together in those dark days of anglicization before the war and kept our Estonian school here alive.
Other Europeans had their own school boards until they were banned by our government. We had German, Ukranian, Polish, Lithuanian and other school boards in Western Canada that were set up to maintain the languages of these ethnic groups. there was also an Estonian school in Eckville, Alberta. The situation in B.C. got so bad in the 1950s when children of Russian immigrants were removed from their homes and forced to attend English schools that parents retaliated by burning the schools. The government in turn put many of these parents in camps. Yes, this happened in Canada. One reader commented on why I am writing about these embarassing things that happened in the past and thought I sounded like a nut for writing about the Orange Order which was behind all this but it is obvious that this spirit lives on, even with some of the Anglophiles here who seem to take pleasure in the death of our community.
We have always had such problem people in Estonian society, even in Estonia before the war there were those who favoured the German or Russian languages over Estonian.
I do not think that there is any chance of us preserving our identity here unless we have control over our childrens' education. This should be our first priority. Everything else is secondary. Times have changed and now the once-powerful English Canadian lobby is a shadow of it's former self and there is no way that they can deny us this right any longer.
I totally agree with the comment that we should work together with other ethnic groups who share our concerns ind interests. Imagine what our community would be like now if we had all worked together in those dark days of anglicization before the war and kept our Estonian school here alive.
I agree with what you say for the most part. I think it is worth investigating whether there is something that we might be doing differently or more effectively. That is why I think it's worth seeing how other ethnic groups in Toronto function.
I agree with previous commentary that parents who speak Estonian in the home are giving their children options they wouldn’t have if they didn’t speak Estonian. I’d like to hear from parents in mixed marriages, whose children speak Estonian – how do they do it? Any tips? What do they do when their child keeps reverting to English?
My husband and I are both Estonian and spoke only Estonian to our children while raising them, so I can't answer from personal family experience. I have, however witnessed, firsthand, the efforts of parents from different backgrounds, who have successfully raised their children in multilingual homes.
One example, is a family in Jõekääru, where the mother is Lithuanian and the father, Esto. Mother only spoke Lithuanian to the kids. Father only spoke Esto to the kids. The kids went to Lithuanian school and Esto school for a while, until they moved too far out of the city to make this possible. Father learned Lithuanian, Mother learned Estonian so well, that people couldn't believe she wasn't an Esto.
The key is, to make a committment to teaching your child the language.
They WILL test you by answering in English. Be persistent and answer only in Estonian. Be a nag and expect them to answer in Esto: Kuidas palun? Nüüd ütle Eesti keeles.....
After all - you ARE the parent and they are the kids. You don't need to win a popularity contest. (for being "cool" and speaking English)
Believe me, they WILL thank you later.
One example, is a family in Jõekääru, where the mother is Lithuanian and the father, Esto. Mother only spoke Lithuanian to the kids. Father only spoke Esto to the kids. The kids went to Lithuanian school and Esto school for a while, until they moved too far out of the city to make this possible. Father learned Lithuanian, Mother learned Estonian so well, that people couldn't believe she wasn't an Esto.
The key is, to make a committment to teaching your child the language.
They WILL test you by answering in English. Be persistent and answer only in Estonian. Be a nag and expect them to answer in Esto: Kuidas palun? Nüüd ütle Eesti keeles.....
After all - you ARE the parent and they are the kids. You don't need to win a popularity contest. (for being "cool" and speaking English)
Believe me, they WILL thank you later.
Anonymous,
When you think about, without passing on the Estonian language you are suggesting the community to become a "Rotarian" service organization for what is one's cultural heritage without knowledge of the language.Ever hear of the saying "it looses something in the translation" if you didn't know the language what would you care.
I don't understand why you seem so hateful of the language or those who you call "beat their chest" (CPs) others call prideful in being able to pass on the language to their children?
I have friends where one spouse isn't Estonian, the children are only permited to speak English with that spouse and Estonian with the other. Others who can afford it have hired Estonian nannies or Au Pairs whose main function is to teach Estonian to the children. This ends up costing no more than full-time day care and considerablly less than most private schools.
On one hand you criticize those "chest pouders" and the other you seem to cheer them "much as we may admire and applaud them"
For you being an Estonian is a matter of convenience, you have other more important things to do. So do we "chest pounders" we have careers and social lives outside of the Estonian community. Our children have non-Estonian playmates. But we CPs automatically switch to Estonian when we are at home, on our way to hockey, skiing, music lessons and while hanging out at the cottage.
You are correct that most Estonian functions are in Estonian and there is less and less spoken, but you are advocating that this stop so that you can participate. That is not fair to us CPs whoo have kept the culture alive nor our children.
Most if not all functions for children have made accommodations for those wishing to learn the language and culture hence the "split" classes at Eesti kool and the immersion programs at both children's summer camps. Not to mention the Estonian girl guides and boy scouts.
There is no-one stopping the non-Estonian speaking population from organizing their own groups. But from what you write it would appear that you want someone else to take this burden on and you'll join in?
When you think about, without passing on the Estonian language you are suggesting the community to become a "Rotarian" service organization for what is one's cultural heritage without knowledge of the language.Ever hear of the saying "it looses something in the translation" if you didn't know the language what would you care.
I don't understand why you seem so hateful of the language or those who you call "beat their chest" (CPs) others call prideful in being able to pass on the language to their children?
I have friends where one spouse isn't Estonian, the children are only permited to speak English with that spouse and Estonian with the other. Others who can afford it have hired Estonian nannies or Au Pairs whose main function is to teach Estonian to the children. This ends up costing no more than full-time day care and considerablly less than most private schools.
On one hand you criticize those "chest pouders" and the other you seem to cheer them "much as we may admire and applaud them"
For you being an Estonian is a matter of convenience, you have other more important things to do. So do we "chest pounders" we have careers and social lives outside of the Estonian community. Our children have non-Estonian playmates. But we CPs automatically switch to Estonian when we are at home, on our way to hockey, skiing, music lessons and while hanging out at the cottage.
You are correct that most Estonian functions are in Estonian and there is less and less spoken, but you are advocating that this stop so that you can participate. That is not fair to us CPs whoo have kept the culture alive nor our children.
Most if not all functions for children have made accommodations for those wishing to learn the language and culture hence the "split" classes at Eesti kool and the immersion programs at both children's summer camps. Not to mention the Estonian girl guides and boy scouts.
There is no-one stopping the non-Estonian speaking population from organizing their own groups. But from what you write it would appear that you want someone else to take this burden on and you'll join in?
One factor that we have overlooked in our discussion here is the effect of modern technology on our community. At one time we and many other ethnic groups here in Canada were isolated from our language and culture. We could not read daily newspapers in Estonian or watch TV in our language. Contact with Estonian speaking relatives and friends was limited to letters. Now we have the internet and things have really changed. We can send e-mails and listen to the radio. We can read Estonian newspapers and soon we will probably be able to watch Estonian TV. Not long ago the only language we heard on TV and the radio was English but thanks to the internet we have unlimited access to the Estonian language media.
I listen to Raadio Elmar (ainult Eesti muusika) on the internet at work almost every day.
Www.elmar.ee
I think it helps my Estonian language to hear it spoken in its true form. I hear the news and weather & when I email my cousins in Eesti, I know what's going on.
Tecnology certainly helps us these days!
Www.elmar.ee
I think it helps my Estonian language to hear it spoken in its true form. I hear the news and weather & when I email my cousins in Eesti, I know what's going on.
Tecnology certainly helps us these days!
Chest Pounder (CP) makes a good point: There is no-one stopping the non-Estonian speaking population from organizing their own groups. Why haven't they? I have wondered this before. Is it because they have no interest in doing so? In which case, our efforts to create events/activities for them would be a waste of time. Or would they say that they have been treated like second-class Estos for not speaking the language and have retreated to the shadows? If they did have successful events, would Estonian speakers feel threatened in the wake of their own ranks thinning out?
(By the way, CP, your arguments are getting difficult to follow...re-reading them before posting would help.)
(By the way, CP, your arguments are getting difficult to follow...re-reading them before posting would help.)
I have read this lively discussion and believe that there is still considerable spunk left in the Estonian Community... certainly enough to last my lifetime +/- another 30-40 years.
We have had two major events recently, Suvehari and the Esto Bank party which attracted large numbers that were reminiscent of the 70’s. Why? Because they were well organized, well advertised and catered to attract all generations regardless of language excellence or cultural involvement. Estonians are too small of an ethnic group to argue about who is “in” or “out”. We need all the bodies we can get!Personally, I extend open arms to all. If you are 100%, ½, 1/4th , 1/8th, or have any fraction of Estonian blood in your veins...you are IN. If you are married to an Estonian, you are IN. If you just love Estonia or any Estonian you are IN. and if you just wish you were an Estonian .. you are also most welcome. Come and participate. I can only hope that we continue to experience that overwhelmingly exciting feeling when one accidentally discovers that someone where you work or at your school is an Estonian. Would it not be wonderful to automatically invite them to another big, great Esto event? (which is again Suvehari’s Jaanituli on June 26). Is it not exciting to see people after a long time, knowing that if you were not Estonian, you would have never seen them again.
If we, the current active Estonians can continue to offer functions worthy of everyone’s time, the pursuit of the Estonian language and culture will become a desire, not an obligation to all who participate. Estonians WANT to be Estonians and Estonian events should be the place you WANT to be.
I had no choice, my parents raised me as an Estonian regardless of the fact that I am technically a Canadian. However, any intentional denial of that endangered culture and language from my children was unthinkable.
We have had two major events recently, Suvehari and the Esto Bank party which attracted large numbers that were reminiscent of the 70’s. Why? Because they were well organized, well advertised and catered to attract all generations regardless of language excellence or cultural involvement. Estonians are too small of an ethnic group to argue about who is “in” or “out”. We need all the bodies we can get!Personally, I extend open arms to all. If you are 100%, ½, 1/4th , 1/8th, or have any fraction of Estonian blood in your veins...you are IN. If you are married to an Estonian, you are IN. If you just love Estonia or any Estonian you are IN. and if you just wish you were an Estonian .. you are also most welcome. Come and participate. I can only hope that we continue to experience that overwhelmingly exciting feeling when one accidentally discovers that someone where you work or at your school is an Estonian. Would it not be wonderful to automatically invite them to another big, great Esto event? (which is again Suvehari’s Jaanituli on June 26). Is it not exciting to see people after a long time, knowing that if you were not Estonian, you would have never seen them again.
If we, the current active Estonians can continue to offer functions worthy of everyone’s time, the pursuit of the Estonian language and culture will become a desire, not an obligation to all who participate. Estonians WANT to be Estonians and Estonian events should be the place you WANT to be.
I had no choice, my parents raised me as an Estonian regardless of the fact that I am technically a Canadian. However, any intentional denial of that endangered culture and language from my children was unthinkable.
Don't forget the Eesti Kooli "Rokk & Roll" party on the 14th.
We are not the only ethnic group in Canada who is in danger of losing its language and culture. There are other groups here who face the same problems and challenges that we do and have been much more successful than we have.
The Native Indians have just recently taken control of their schools and now their children are taught in various aboriginal languages. They have even gone so far as in eliminating English as a language of government in Nunavut and replacing it with Inuktitut. Although there is no "one" Native language the different tribes have come together to pursue a common goal and have been very successful.
The German language is also growing in Canada, thanks to 2 religious groups who use it daily so as to isolate themselves from the Anglo-American monoculture. Few would want to emulate the anti-technology religious fanatics of the Old Order Amish but the Hutterites also speak German and they are very successful farmers who have turned their Bruderhof communities into prosperous agribusinesses.
I have already mentioned the Ukranians in Western Canada. They do however, have one advantage over us, there are many of them concentrated in the same areas.
The revival of Gaelic in Nova Scotia should also be studied. This language was the 3rd most spoken in Canada at one time. In the late 1800s there were 85,000 Gaelic speakers in that province. There were newspapers and books published in that language. In 100 years the number of speakers has plummeted to around 800. There is now much interest in the revival of this language in Eastern Canada as the people there have realized how much they have lost of their unique Celtic culture by adopting English.
The Native Indians have just recently taken control of their schools and now their children are taught in various aboriginal languages. They have even gone so far as in eliminating English as a language of government in Nunavut and replacing it with Inuktitut. Although there is no "one" Native language the different tribes have come together to pursue a common goal and have been very successful.
The German language is also growing in Canada, thanks to 2 religious groups who use it daily so as to isolate themselves from the Anglo-American monoculture. Few would want to emulate the anti-technology religious fanatics of the Old Order Amish but the Hutterites also speak German and they are very successful farmers who have turned their Bruderhof communities into prosperous agribusinesses.
I have already mentioned the Ukranians in Western Canada. They do however, have one advantage over us, there are many of them concentrated in the same areas.
The revival of Gaelic in Nova Scotia should also be studied. This language was the 3rd most spoken in Canada at one time. In the late 1800s there were 85,000 Gaelic speakers in that province. There were newspapers and books published in that language. In 100 years the number of speakers has plummeted to around 800. There is now much interest in the revival of this language in Eastern Canada as the people there have realized how much they have lost of their unique Celtic culture by adopting English.
Peter,
In case you haven't noticed, this is a newspape that caters to the ESTONIAN community not the Irish, Inuit or any other culture. We are different any fairly proud of that fact. WE ain't the Old Order Amish or the Hutterites (or at least the last time I looked ) so I and I'm sure a number of the good readers can not fathom the reason for bring up these examples. Although a number of Estonians enjoy a good single malt (even OBAN) and Jamiesons doesn't mean Estonan should be compared to the Gaelic. Unless of course you've had a wee dram too many.
In case you haven't noticed, this is a newspape that caters to the ESTONIAN community not the Irish, Inuit or any other culture. We are different any fairly proud of that fact. WE ain't the Old Order Amish or the Hutterites (or at least the last time I looked ) so I and I'm sure a number of the good readers can not fathom the reason for bring up these examples. Although a number of Estonians enjoy a good single malt (even OBAN) and Jamiesons doesn't mean Estonan should be compared to the Gaelic. Unless of course you've had a wee dram too many.
My father always reminisced, that "küll on kahju et me põgenikud eestlased ei ole kõik kohe kogunenud sinna prints Eedvardi saarele... Nii hea kartuli maa, ja kala ka igal pool. Ilmad nagu Eestis, ja Tead, juba pool iseseisev,provintsi staatus juba olemas. Oleksime kaitstud suure riigi, kanaada, külje all ja isegi Ülikool on juba asutatud. Paari aastaga olemegi oma ette riik enne kui need kanaadalased jõuavad aru saada mis on juhtunud. Siis ajame kõik võõrad minema oma eesti keelega. .. nääh, küll on see va kahju et pole seda ette teadnud siis kui tulime siia...
Yes he was from Hiiumaa!
Yes he was from Hiiumaa!
When I read things like Anonymous wrote:
"If you want to be welcomed back into a organization you dropped out by YOUR own choice, don't expect your return to be easy"
I get a bit depressed. Then along comes someone like Lia who says:
"Estonians are too small of an ethnic group to argue about who is “in” or “out”"
and I just want to give her a big hug. How refreshing. Thankyou Lia. I agree completely and wish more people had this attitude.
Peter:
I don't think there are many who share your desire to have their children educated primarily in Estonian instead of English. Am I wrong? Interesting idea though.
P.S. Let me know if you hear any more about the tanks, I'm really quite excited about this. If Osso does not have a big enough container I'm sure Mr. Allikas can come up with something, perhaps a raft of some sort?
"If you want to be welcomed back into a organization you dropped out by YOUR own choice, don't expect your return to be easy"
I get a bit depressed. Then along comes someone like Lia who says:
"Estonians are too small of an ethnic group to argue about who is “in” or “out”"
and I just want to give her a big hug. How refreshing. Thankyou Lia. I agree completely and wish more people had this attitude.
Peter:
I don't think there are many who share your desire to have their children educated primarily in Estonian instead of English. Am I wrong? Interesting idea though.
P.S. Let me know if you hear any more about the tanks, I'm really quite excited about this. If Osso does not have a big enough container I'm sure Mr. Allikas can come up with something, perhaps a raft of some sort?
IRW,
My apologies for my poor sentence structure and your ability to take items out of context. What I said was.
"If you want to be welcomed back into a organization you dropped out by YOUR own choice, don't expect your return to be easy especially if you offend most everyone around by making inane or offensive comparison's as you have done.
Your type of "baiting" journalism is unproductive."
I can't change what I wrote, but at least use the entire sentence when attributing statements.
My apologies for my poor sentence structure and your ability to take items out of context. What I said was.
"If you want to be welcomed back into a organization you dropped out by YOUR own choice, don't expect your return to be easy especially if you offend most everyone around by making inane or offensive comparison's as you have done.
Your type of "baiting" journalism is unproductive."
I can't change what I wrote, but at least use the entire sentence when attributing statements.
I'd like to look into a buy 10, get one free deal...
Sorry, I forgot to put ... at the end of the quote to imply that the sentence continues on. This was an honest mistake, but did I really take your words out of context? I suppose readers can judge for themselves.
Here's another quote from one of your comments (this time the full sentence).
"Now that "he has the time" he wants to be an Estonian again. How convenient!"
The point I was trying to make was that Lia's attitude is to accept everyone, your attitude is quite different, do you disagree? In my opinion your attitude is counter-productive.
"Learn to Forgive" (the author of the second comment in this thread which was a direct response to your comment) had this to say:
"If there is no other reason why you should dislike Peter, i.e. he's an axe-murderer, then I would say learn to forgive Peter for your own well-being and welcome your fellow Estonian 'home'. Life is really too short for this type of pettiness."
I agree. Life really is too short and as Lia said:
"Estonians are too small of an ethnic group to argue about who is “in” or “out”."
You may disagree with Peeeter's choice to "drop out", that is your right just as it was his right to make that decision. It is also your right not to welcome him back if he should want to "drop in" again or to attatch conditions to your acceptance, I just think that in the long run Lia's attitude is preferable.
Here's another quote from one of your comments (this time the full sentence).
"Now that "he has the time" he wants to be an Estonian again. How convenient!"
The point I was trying to make was that Lia's attitude is to accept everyone, your attitude is quite different, do you disagree? In my opinion your attitude is counter-productive.
"Learn to Forgive" (the author of the second comment in this thread which was a direct response to your comment) had this to say:
"If there is no other reason why you should dislike Peter, i.e. he's an axe-murderer, then I would say learn to forgive Peter for your own well-being and welcome your fellow Estonian 'home'. Life is really too short for this type of pettiness."
I agree. Life really is too short and as Lia said:
"Estonians are too small of an ethnic group to argue about who is “in” or “out”."
You may disagree with Peeeter's choice to "drop out", that is your right just as it was his right to make that decision. It is also your right not to welcome him back if he should want to "drop in" again or to attatch conditions to your acceptance, I just think that in the long run Lia's attitude is preferable.
IRW,
I agree with your review of my posts.
Peeter has every right to drop out, I respect that decision I also respect his decision to rejoin in fact I welcome it.
What I personally do not appreciate is how someone who has not been an active participant of the Estonian Cultrual community for nearly 30 years can write the drivel that Peeter Bush does. He insinuates that the Estonian community is dying out and then compares Estonian community to the Communist party in North America he bases his "opinion" on information from books that are nearly 30 years out date, and attending two yearly functions as to how the Estonian community is progressing. IRW how can you tolerate such "disinformation"
Has he even attended a function at the Estonian Embassy?
Has he met any of the staff?
Has he volunteered to help with any function?
I believe the answers are no.
All PB does is criticize and pass judgement based on two functions per year. And even one of those his spouse insults the performers (his words not mine).
Lia Hess's article is "bang on" in other words I agree with her.
I have never advocated that those who do not speak the language stay away, nor have I advocated that Peeter Bush stay away. Perhaps my angery tone portrayed that, unfortunately that was not my intent.
What I have stated is that I don't appreciate his type of journalism nor his attitude of activities being convienent for his type. I advocate participation.
What I and a number of friends and relatives don't agree with is PB's style writing about a society that he currently (by his own admission) really has no ties with.
Do I not have the right to disagree and write about my opinion? Perhaps I've gotten a bit personal in my posting but I stand by it.
Lia also posted "If we, the current active Estonians can continue to offer functions worthy of everyone’s time, the pursuit of the Estonian language and culture will become a desire, not an obligation to all who participate. Estonians WANT to be Estonians and Estonian events should be the place you WANT to be."
Very appropriately put. Please note IRW there is NO mention/comparison to the North American Communist Party.
Lia explains why alot of us have learned and remained true to passing on the language and culture to our children. "I had no choice, my parents raised me as an Estonian regardless of the fact that I am technically a Canadian. However, any intentional denial of that endangered culture and language from my children was unthinkable."
I agree with your review of my posts.
Peeter has every right to drop out, I respect that decision I also respect his decision to rejoin in fact I welcome it.
What I personally do not appreciate is how someone who has not been an active participant of the Estonian Cultrual community for nearly 30 years can write the drivel that Peeter Bush does. He insinuates that the Estonian community is dying out and then compares Estonian community to the Communist party in North America he bases his "opinion" on information from books that are nearly 30 years out date, and attending two yearly functions as to how the Estonian community is progressing. IRW how can you tolerate such "disinformation"
Has he even attended a function at the Estonian Embassy?
Has he met any of the staff?
Has he volunteered to help with any function?
I believe the answers are no.
All PB does is criticize and pass judgement based on two functions per year. And even one of those his spouse insults the performers (his words not mine).
Lia Hess's article is "bang on" in other words I agree with her.
I have never advocated that those who do not speak the language stay away, nor have I advocated that Peeter Bush stay away. Perhaps my angery tone portrayed that, unfortunately that was not my intent.
What I have stated is that I don't appreciate his type of journalism nor his attitude of activities being convienent for his type. I advocate participation.
What I and a number of friends and relatives don't agree with is PB's style writing about a society that he currently (by his own admission) really has no ties with.
Do I not have the right to disagree and write about my opinion? Perhaps I've gotten a bit personal in my posting but I stand by it.
Lia also posted "If we, the current active Estonians can continue to offer functions worthy of everyone’s time, the pursuit of the Estonian language and culture will become a desire, not an obligation to all who participate. Estonians WANT to be Estonians and Estonian events should be the place you WANT to be."
Very appropriately put. Please note IRW there is NO mention/comparison to the North American Communist Party.
Lia explains why alot of us have learned and remained true to passing on the language and culture to our children. "I had no choice, my parents raised me as an Estonian regardless of the fact that I am technically a Canadian. However, any intentional denial of that endangered culture and language from my children was unthinkable."
I believe I did get the wrong impression from your angry tone. Thankyou for clearing this up. I agree that Lia's bang on, end of story:-)
Without getting into the validity (or lack thereof) of Peeters articles, I think the resulting discussion can't be anything but healthy. For example I think that Peter's (not to be confused with Peeter) idea of sponsoring someone to attend Tartu University is the best idea that I've heard in ages. If this comes to pass then all this "discussion" will have been worth it.
Without getting into the validity (or lack thereof) of Peeters articles, I think the resulting discussion can't be anything but healthy. For example I think that Peter's (not to be confused with Peeter) idea of sponsoring someone to attend Tartu University is the best idea that I've heard in ages. If this comes to pass then all this "discussion" will have been worth it.
Who is going to quarterback it (student's to university in Estonia)? For Toronto folks, it should be a combo project between the Estonian school, EKN, Sihtkapital, University of Tartu and any patrons that come out of the woodwork. Entrance exams also need to be considered. If UofTartu is too ambitious in the beginning, then there must be other institutions of higher/further learning to consider for partnership.
There have been students who have gone to Tartu Ülikool in the past few years. The ones I know of, have done so as an "exchange program" through their local university. (the ones I know are from U of T and from Rutgers in NJ) These have been for 1 year stints.
Does anyone know of someone who has gone to U of Tartu for the whole shebang?
I've heard (linna peal) that K.H. is planning on going there next year. (Lia - what's the scoop on addmission?)
Could this (stipendium) be a project for Sihtkapital? Can it work within the by-laws?
Does anyone know of someone who has gone to U of Tartu for the whole shebang?
I've heard (linna peal) that K.H. is planning on going there next year. (Lia - what's the scoop on addmission?)
Could this (stipendium) be a project for Sihtkapital? Can it work within the by-laws?
Let's not forget AK and EKL. I know a number of korp sponsor students too.
These ideas are great, but what/how are we going to increase the participation within the GTA/Golden Horseshoe area in already existing the Estonian organizations? By sending or rewarding the best Estonian speaking children to Eesti?
Perhaps I'm missing something but how does this benefit the rest of the community especially children from homes were Estonian isn't spoken daily? Would they have a chance to go to Eesti too?
These ideas are great, but what/how are we going to increase the participation within the GTA/Golden Horseshoe area in already existing the Estonian organizations? By sending or rewarding the best Estonian speaking children to Eesti?
Perhaps I'm missing something but how does this benefit the rest of the community especially children from homes were Estonian isn't spoken daily? Would they have a chance to go to Eesti too?
One of the students I mentioned, is from my korp and spoke very little Esto before the year in Tartu. (now fluent)
The only problem with having the korp'id (AK, EKL) involved with the selection, is that then the young person would already have to be in a post-secondary institution and a member of a korp.
If the intent would be to send them there for the full 3 - 4 yrs, then they aren't necessarily already in University or a member of a korp.
This is a great string of thought.... let's get this happening!
The only problem with having the korp'id (AK, EKL) involved with the selection, is that then the young person would already have to be in a post-secondary institution and a member of a korp.
If the intent would be to send them there for the full 3 - 4 yrs, then they aren't necessarily already in University or a member of a korp.
This is a great string of thought.... let's get this happening!
IRW,
All the comments and ideas re: sending students to Eesti are good and wonderful and you and Peeter should take the opportunity to build from the input provided. I'm sure Lia Hess and the rest of Siht Kapital as well as EKN would be more that willing to help you put such a prohject together.
I started these posts not envisioning an eduacation plan arise from the comments.
To me the validity about Peeter Bush's articles IS the question for which I started these posts. My emotions have gotten the better part of me, but his articles would have once been classified as "yellow journalism".
All the comments and ideas re: sending students to Eesti are good and wonderful and you and Peeter should take the opportunity to build from the input provided. I'm sure Lia Hess and the rest of Siht Kapital as well as EKN would be more that willing to help you put such a prohject together.
I started these posts not envisioning an eduacation plan arise from the comments.
To me the validity about Peeter Bush's articles IS the question for which I started these posts. My emotions have gotten the better part of me, but his articles would have once been classified as "yellow journalism".
I also question the validity of what P.B. has written.
I DO, however, agree with Tarvo Toomes and others who have written to say that the kind of debate that his articles have brought about is very valuable!
This is an excellent forum. Eesti Elu Online, should provide this forum at all times, independent of articles.
I DO, however, agree with Tarvo Toomes and others who have written to say that the kind of debate that his articles have brought about is very valuable!
This is an excellent forum. Eesti Elu Online, should provide this forum at all times, independent of articles.
What would really be awsome is a creative writing course in Estonian, geared to adults.
How do we increase the participation within existing Esto orgs? By adopting many of the suggestions from our collective comments to PB’s articles (hello! cue for EKN, stage right…I wouldn’t mind Avo or Priit jumping in here at any time with their comments).
There is nothing wrong with rewarding the best students for their hard work – they are the role models amongst the peers, the young people who will set the standard for others to follow.
And what about the non-Estonian speaking kids? Well, let’s send them to Estonia too, why not. Let’s set up a program for them too. It only makes sense.
There is nothing wrong with rewarding the best students for their hard work – they are the role models amongst the peers, the young people who will set the standard for others to follow.
And what about the non-Estonian speaking kids? Well, let’s send them to Estonia too, why not. Let’s set up a program for them too. It only makes sense.
To my understandin, EKN is a political organization, involved in political activities.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this kind of thing is in their mandate.
There ARE two, fast-fading organizations that this WOULD fall under, Toronto Eesti Selts (have the other city's Eesti seltsid involved too) and Eesti Liit Kanadas. (I believe that is the name)
They could use this kind of activity to drive membership and give them renewed validity.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this kind of thing is in their mandate.
There ARE two, fast-fading organizations that this WOULD fall under, Toronto Eesti Selts (have the other city's Eesti seltsid involved too) and Eesti Liit Kanadas. (I believe that is the name)
They could use this kind of activity to drive membership and give them renewed validity.
You may be right regarding EKN, or you may be not. I thought of this too, so I checked their web-site. I discovered that they seem to have adapted the description of their activities to the following:
“Pärast Eesti taas-iseseisvumist nihkus EKNi siht Kanada-Eesti vahelisele kultuuri, majandus ja muude sidemete arendamisele. EKN mängib samuti tähtsat rolli Kanada eesti ühiskonna kultuuri elus hoidmises, korraldades mitmeid üritusi, kongresse ja koosolekuid.” I checked out the English version of their description, which varies and sounds more Canadian-Estonian trade oriented, though it mentions keeping ‘the Estonian heritage and culture vibrant in Canada’.
If EKN is not the org to step up to the plate, then fine. Toronto Eesti Selts would be a good candidate, though its interests do not represent all Canadian Estonians. Eesti Liit Kanadas? I don’t know what they do and have heard less from them than EKN. I wish some Esto umbrella organization would hang out its shingle in the community, saying ‘we’re here to help you’, because they seem to be tossing it around like a hot potato. Would someone from Toronto Eesti Selts or Eesti Liit Kanadas mind commenting?
“Pärast Eesti taas-iseseisvumist nihkus EKNi siht Kanada-Eesti vahelisele kultuuri, majandus ja muude sidemete arendamisele. EKN mängib samuti tähtsat rolli Kanada eesti ühiskonna kultuuri elus hoidmises, korraldades mitmeid üritusi, kongresse ja koosolekuid.” I checked out the English version of their description, which varies and sounds more Canadian-Estonian trade oriented, though it mentions keeping ‘the Estonian heritage and culture vibrant in Canada’.
If EKN is not the org to step up to the plate, then fine. Toronto Eesti Selts would be a good candidate, though its interests do not represent all Canadian Estonians. Eesti Liit Kanadas? I don’t know what they do and have heard less from them than EKN. I wish some Esto umbrella organization would hang out its shingle in the community, saying ‘we’re here to help you’, because they seem to be tossing it around like a hot potato. Would someone from Toronto Eesti Selts or Eesti Liit Kanadas mind commenting?
From the depths of my memory, I seem to recall that the "Liit" is supposed to be that umbrella organization.
Whether it still exists or not, I don't know.
Years ago, the head of that org. was Vello Huubel. He, sadly, passed away many years ago.
Whether it still exists or not, I don't know.
Years ago, the head of that org. was Vello Huubel. He, sadly, passed away many years ago.
How about the various "Korp"'s. Rotalia, Veronia, etc.? Is there anybody out there?
Vironia has several scholarships available to use where-ever the applicant wishes. We currently assist several, most locals prefer to study in North America.
Meeskorpidel tundub olema raha stipendiumideks. Nais-korpidel, minu teada, ei ole.
Great to read so many comments about one of my ideas! I know that some of the korps have sent students there, I was introduced to a young lady from Toronto when I was in Tartu last year, probably the same person who was mentioned here.
I know that I am considered a "marurahvuslane" in this forum but I am a very practical person as well. There are few real nationalists in our community, they are usually the ones who keep our various organizations going but the majority take part in our activities just for fun or because its "something to do" in their spare time.
There are some parents who have not taught their children Estonian because it is too much work for them and they see no practical reason for it. Some of the same parents put their kids in French immersion so that they will have a better chance at finding a good job. I know a few Estos who are married to Germans and their children speak German but not Estonian. The parents thought that German is a much more useful language to learn. What those of us who want to keep our language and culture alive can do by setting up a program to send students to Estonia is to give parents one more reason to teach their children Estonian and also make our young people want to learn the language as well. This would even motivate those who are not nationalists and give them a practical reason to learn Estonian. I have heard many very negative comments made in our community about parents who have not taught the language to their children and have been guilty of making them myself. Getting emotional as some of us like to do is not the answer to our problems. We need practical solutions and this can be one of them.
As an example, in recent years the number of schoolchildren in Europe who study German has increased by leaps and bounds. The British Council (an ultranationalist group that wants to make English the international language) made very negative comments about this trend in the magazine Economist. German is now even more popular in some countries than English. Why? Those who support the German language have given students a very practical reason to study it. Free scholarships to German universities. The cultural and economic benifits to Germany of having so many German speakers are obvious.
We can not compare the Estonian government to that of Germany as they do not have the same financial recources available to them but it would also be in their interest to have large numbers of Estonian speaking people in other countries. They have already sent textbooks to the Täienduskool in Toronto and may want to help with university scholarships as well.
I know that I am considered a "marurahvuslane" in this forum but I am a very practical person as well. There are few real nationalists in our community, they are usually the ones who keep our various organizations going but the majority take part in our activities just for fun or because its "something to do" in their spare time.
There are some parents who have not taught their children Estonian because it is too much work for them and they see no practical reason for it. Some of the same parents put their kids in French immersion so that they will have a better chance at finding a good job. I know a few Estos who are married to Germans and their children speak German but not Estonian. The parents thought that German is a much more useful language to learn. What those of us who want to keep our language and culture alive can do by setting up a program to send students to Estonia is to give parents one more reason to teach their children Estonian and also make our young people want to learn the language as well. This would even motivate those who are not nationalists and give them a practical reason to learn Estonian. I have heard many very negative comments made in our community about parents who have not taught the language to their children and have been guilty of making them myself. Getting emotional as some of us like to do is not the answer to our problems. We need practical solutions and this can be one of them.
As an example, in recent years the number of schoolchildren in Europe who study German has increased by leaps and bounds. The British Council (an ultranationalist group that wants to make English the international language) made very negative comments about this trend in the magazine Economist. German is now even more popular in some countries than English. Why? Those who support the German language have given students a very practical reason to study it. Free scholarships to German universities. The cultural and economic benifits to Germany of having so many German speakers are obvious.
We can not compare the Estonian government to that of Germany as they do not have the same financial recources available to them but it would also be in their interest to have large numbers of Estonian speaking people in other countries. They have already sent textbooks to the Täienduskool in Toronto and may want to help with university scholarships as well.
I'm going to go off on a tangent, but on a related topic. Many may be surprised to hear that the Toronto Estonian school does not have a functioning library. One is in the works, with plans to buy new childrens/youth books from Estonia, but all this has been waylayed since they are hard at work fundraising for their school trip to Estonia for the song festival this summer. Anyone who wants to support the school library can obviously make a donation to the school towards the purchase of these books.
You suggest that Peeter and I build on the idea of sending students to Eesti with the help of Lia Hess and the rest of Siht Kapital as well as EKN.
I wonder CP, if you think that this is such a good idea, why not drive the project yourself rather then delegating this worthy task to others?
I wonder CP, if you think that this is such a good idea, why not drive the project yourself rather then delegating this worthy task to others?
IRW,
Only reason why suggested that you run with the idea was because YOU and Peter/Peeter came up with it. I wouldn't want to grab your glory.
Only reason why suggested that you run with the idea was because YOU and Peter/Peeter came up with it. I wouldn't want to grab your glory.
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