Estonians trapped in stereotypes: Collaborator or victim? (III)
Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
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Maxim.04 Dec 2005 13:33
Congratulations-this is a very balanced article. I think that it represents the way the German-Russian problematic axis really was in Estonia at the time, and certainly the Germans had very little intention of letting Estonians run their nation in much the same way as before, had the Germans won the war. The hero-worshipping attitude towards Germans was simply a reaction to the previous Soviet occupation-nothing more, nothing less. But the Germans had next to no faith in letting Estonians run their country should they have won the war. Mein Kampf was strictly forbidden to be published in Estonian-why was this so??? And unfortunately all too many pretty young Estonian women of the time literally s¤$€wed their way to national stardom flinging themselves into the arms of German soldiers-a very foolish thing to do by anyone's estimation. In the end the evidence proving Estonia's trust at the time in the German forces v's the Russians is based on very flimsy evidence indeed.
Peter04 Dec 2005 15:21
I don't know if it was forbidden to publish Mein Kampf in Estonian but Hitler did not want his book to be translated into English but the Book of the Month Club published it anyway.
I do not think that it would have made any difference in Estonia since almost all educated Estonians could read German and Mein Kampf was widely sold in Estonia at the time as were books by Rosenberg and other Nazi Party intellectuals.
As an interesting footnote, Alfred Rosenberg, the Nazi Party ideologue who was later hung by the allies, was a fluent Estonian speaker. In an act of typical German arrogance, when Rosenberg was in Estonia during the war he refused to speak any language but German. A speech in Estonian by such an important German statesman would have raised public morale and been a great propaganda opportunity for the anti-bolshevik cause.

Maxim.04 Dec 2005 22:50
Peter, you come up with some of the most incredible facts! That is quite phenomenal-Rosenberg being a fluent Estonian speaker. I would hasten to add that no doubt he and Hjalmar Mäe-the most trustworthy Estonian politician among the ranks of men occupying positions of importance during the Nazi regime-probably conversed in Estonian. Can anyone verify this point???
Peter05 Dec 2005 18:30
Rosenberg's entire high school education was in Estonian. He attended the Tallinna Reaalkool and was probably its most famous (or infamous) graduate. Interestingly he was also probably the most influential Estonian speaking politician of the 20th century as well. In spite of this he was no friend of the Estonian people and represented the most extreme faction of the NSDAP which would not listen to reason when it came to the peoples of Eastern Europe and who's way of thinking probably cost Germany the war.

Peeter Bush06 Dec 2005 17:47
Peter,
Your info is quite possibly more accurate but Wikipedia shows Rosenberg to be sympathetic to citizens of occupied countries, especially since he was married to an Esto.
If so, you might want to straighten out Wikipedea.
You are quite correct that the shortsighted Nazi treatment of people in the conquered territories greatly helped them lose the war on the Eastern front.
to - Peeter Bush07 Dec 2005 08:45
Your customary good sense has failed you on this occasion -- the Nazis occupied other nations in order to put them into their proper place. Thus, the mistreatment of people in occupied territories can't be described as a bad strategy when it was, in fact, the purpose of occupation.
wikipedia's accuracy ... not07 Dec 2005 12:35
from Charles Cooper, sympatico 12/2 ...
For younger people, this is all second nature. Increasingly they rely--maybe exaggeratedly so--on the Internet for information. Purists may sniff at the elevation of Wikipedia to the rank of serious reference source. But that's what it has become for millions of people around the world.

On your ride home today, try pondering a future where Wikipedia's model of competing versions of the truth becomes the norm. Will the increasing influence of the wisdom of the crowd force us to rethink the nature of knowledge? With the proliferation of the Internet, more voices inevitably will become part of that conversation.

With the Internet, anyone with an online connection can chime in.

We're still settling into the new order, and the Seigenthaler episode highlights the challenge of fairly refereeing the debate. Ostensibly, the objective is truth. But questions about the nature of truth date back to Plato and Aristotle. It's a vexing argument that continues to the present day.



Wiki07 Dec 2005 13:25
Just for the record here is a cut and paste from Wikipedea :General Disclaimer. I wouldn't trust anything that is written on the "peldiku seinal" .

"WIKIPEDIA MAKES NO GUARANTEE OF VALIDITY
Wikipedia is an online open-content collaborative encyclopedia, that is, a voluntary association of individuals and groups who are developing a common resource of human knowledge. The structure of the project allows anyone with an Internet connection and World Wide Web browser to alter its content. Please be advised that nothing found here has necessarily been reviewed by professionals with the expertise necessary to provide you with complete, accurate or reliable information.

That is not to say that you will not find valuable and accurate information in Wikipedia; much of the time you will. However, Wikipedia cannot guarantee the validity of the information found here. The content of any given article may recently have been changed, vandalized or altered by someone whose opinion does not correspond with the state of knowledge in the relevant fields."
Don't let Maxi know about Wikipedea. He will change the meaning of the word history to suit his/her motives.
Peter08 Dec 2005 17:32
To Peeter Bush: Thanks for the interesting info. I was not aware that Rosenberg's first wife was Estonian. I was wery surprised to read this because Rosenberg has always been seen as an ultra-nationalist even by more moderate Nazis.
The Wikipedia article was interesting and also somewhat sympathetic. My information about him has mainly come from Estonian sources so maybe I have been too harsh in my assessment of Rosenberg's ideology and his opinion of Estonians.
His magnum opus, Der Mythus des 20 Jarhundreds, has recently been translated and published in English. I spoke to a German friend who read it in the original language and he felt that some of the opinions expressed in the book were crazy. Maybe I will pick up a copy now and read it myself.


Tiritamm07 Dec 2005 11:10
An Estonian historian (alas, now deceased) told me of a published exchange of correspondence between Rosenberg and other high-ranking Nazis concerning the status of Estonians as human beings. Rosenberg wrote on behalf of Estonians rather forcefully and, as a result, we were classified above the Poles. In all likeyhood, this spared Estonians from the brutal treatment doled out to Poles. In a queer way, I suppose we owe him something.
Maxim.07 Dec 2005 11:41
This subject is becoming more interesting by the post, and could result in an about-face as to why Estonians preferred the Germans to the Russians. Keep posting the information if you have more to add. Many thanks to the correspondents who have so far returned some very useful information.
not a secret maxim07 Dec 2005 12:10
that estonians were treated similarly to other northern european peoples such as danes, norwegians, dutch, finns et al as being only slightly below aryan does not explain why the germans were preferred over the russians .... because the soviets/russians had annihilated the polish population during their occupation of eastern poland, and the fact over 60,000 estonians were killed or deported in the first year of soviet/russian occupation illustraes why any other power would have been welcome after the first soviets/russian occupation
Maxim.07 Dec 2005 12:58
Soviet Estonians will tell a slightly different story; since no-one hates their life that much that they discredit it so completely as Estonians abroad have done all too often in the case of Estonians forced to remain here following Soviet occupation. However, people here loved their life, and with the arrival of independence seemed to have moved on without bearing the grudges that you still seem to have. Good luck in the future.
to maxim07 Dec 2005 13:58
you seem to miss the big picture ... poland, germany, hungary, the baltics, in fact all soviet occupied countries were very glad to be rid of the soviet presence in their country .... and credit must be givent to the peoples of these countries who endured and continued to seek freedom and independence from the oppressive soviet occupiers
Maxim.08 Dec 2005 08:11
Estonians who prolonged life under Soviet occupation for 50 years is also part of the big picture. The aggressive attempt to oust the Soviets is one side of the picture, but it is not the only one-the silent majority of Estonians living behind the iron curtain make up a very significant part of the big picture, which I have certainly not failed to understand, though many others have.
to maxim08 Dec 2005 09:30
the silent majority in eesti wanted the soviets out ... this is clearly demonstrated by the fact that in 1989, approx 900,000 estonians (2/3 of the population) signed up for the citizens committees, a virtual referendum for freedom and independence by estonians ... the russians living in estonia, (1/3 of the population who had emigrated to estonia post world war II) may have preferred to stay under soviet rule at that time, but latest polls show that even they appear to be happy to be out from under the soviet yoke .... so the only ones who may have been and are still unhappy are ex-soviet military personnel ... do you belong to this group ?
Maxim.08 Dec 2005 10:34
You just don't get it, do you? I am speaking on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of people who lived in Estonia at the time of Soviet occupation, who had no say whatsoever. In the meantime Estonians abroad were busy communicating the message that what they did for Estonian freedom was the only thing that counted. To hell with Estonians behind the Iron curtain; who were they anyway but a bunch of miserable ideologically misplaced losers. It is these people I am defending, and it is simply incredible that in this day and age people like you still refuse to see this point. Now read all my previous correspondence and you'll see the common thread running through them all. Better luck to you in the future.
to -- Maxim08 Dec 2005 11:51
Not for a moment do I believe that you have any evil intentions. Nonetheless, you suffer from something that prevents you from seeing what's actually before your eyes.

Foremost, you should know that you aren't the defender of Estonians who lived under Soviet occupation. No Estonians anywhere have ever elected you to be their spokesman and, during the Soviet period, you were a confused, drop-out living with your parents in Canada. If you weren't so busy masterbating at the time, you'd know that no one here has ever said "to hell with Estonians behind the Iron Curtain."

You should get a job, Maxim. Then you could get a place of your own and, possibly, a girlfriend. There's lots to be said for living an ordinary life.
Maxim.08 Dec 2005 12:54
Boooooooringggggg!!
?08 Dec 2005 13:23
You mast have looked deep into a crystal ball to find your answer. But why are you so angry?
what didn't you like maxim08 Dec 2005 16:24
"credit must be givent to the peoples of these countries who endured and continued to seek freedom and independence from the oppressive soviet occupiers"
Peter08 Dec 2005 17:19
These kind of crude, offensive comments re. "masterbating" (sic.) etc. have no place in this forum. This is not an adult chat group so learn some manners or post your comments somewhere else.
Ted Johnson08 Dec 2005 11:31
Estonian history is way to complex (same goes for Latvia and Lithuania) to defend in a few articles. But the bottom line is this...life and independence is dificult when you are sandwiched between to fighting bears, and one of them (the Russians) have a history of killing and mistreating their own Russian citizens. What can you do? It is a miracle that the Baltic Nations have survived like they have!
Maxim.08 Dec 2005 22:37
...That my comments appear to be so offensive to some people. i only hope that my critics are not leading lights in your own community, for I really feel for the people that have to work with hoons like these animals! And to imagine they uphold the values of freedom and democracy-really makes you think otherwise, doesn't it.
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