C!F!E! at 100… forever young!
Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
VanemadUuemad
Anonymous17 Mar 2007 09:43
Your euphemistic portrayal of frat life is comprehensible to those who have been there. I doubt that it is to others.
As I remember frat-life from the 60's, it was composed of either hearty bluff, or, solemn bravado about the importance of this 'vital organization'. What you describe as 'initiation' is, more accurately, 'hazing'; 'partying' is, 'heavy drinking'. (You forgot to mention that getting drunk is, 'ära väsimine'.) I never sensed that there was a feeling of fraternity there because we were perpetually careful to avoid any lapse of the complex code of etiquette which would subject us to public humiliation -- "Rebane! Võta sisse!" This was called, 'kasvatus'.
I'm confident that the atmosphere is quite different today simply because few would put up with this sort of thing. In the Estonia of the 30's, by contrast, it was even worse; students had to tolerate an even harsher code because the frat was an essential source of connections for establishing a career after graduation. Only bohemians studying art or music could afford to avoid the frat.
In my judgment, our mutual acquaintance, Jüri Lipp, was a victim of frat-life. He was a talented singer with ambitions who saw the frat as an important stepping stone to making his mark in the Estonian community. Like the rest of us, he drank too much to make it bearable. In his case, however, alcohol exacerbated other health problems which lead to an early funeral. He wasn't yet thirty so, euphemistically, you say that he's 'forever young'.
Anonymous19 Mar 2007 15:08
The late Teet Koppel was a star in the 'Estonia teater' (with Jüri Lipp's father, as coincidence would have it) and in that capacity visited all of the Estonian fraternities as a "trophy guest".
Decades later, in Canada, he described the fraternities as organizations with no detectable purpose -- apart from hazing freshmen. He was appalled by the idea that behaviour that can be seen in prisons and military barracks might exist among organizations of the educated elite.
Maxim.19 Mar 2007 16:06
Fraternities have had their heyday, and I for one wouldn't miss the local Vironia crowd one bit! It's just an excuse for a big grogfest and next to no intellectual content. I have seen my talent blossom tremendously since I got short -shrifted from Vironia, and I encourage others who have been badly done by their fraternity to throw in the towel, and start afresh. There is a life beyond the frat life!!
Anonymous20 Mar 2007 12:10
"I have seen my talent blossom tremendously since I got short -shrifted from Vironia, and I encourage others who have been badly done by their fraternity ..."

This is truly funny !
Has anyone else seen your talent blossom tremendously ? If not,
during this spring's blossoming time, maybe we'll get lucky. And it looks like Vironia's decision to sideline you has been a win-win for both you and Vironia!
vil!19 Mar 2007 20:56
its a shame that some can not see the lifetime of good fun, the friendships, the history, the traditions and the ideals that are also associated with every Frat and Sorority.
A few drinks and having some laughs with rebased is just part of the fun. lighten up and stop the criticism
Amica20 Mar 2007 08:40
I see our fraternities and sororities as serving a very important purpose in our society.
I could write pages about the virtues, but here are a few points.
They are a place where young people of Estonian desent, can meet others of their background.
Some have never, for one reason or another, attended Esto school, guides/scouts, church or summer camp. People come from far and wide to attend university in Toronto. The frat / sorority is a great place to meet new friends.
In our respective frats / sororities, we form a family. "All for one and one for all." Having been a member for decades, I can attest that this is true.
Our frats / sororities are great places for networking. This is useful in day to day life (careers), as well as community life.
Check out the leadership of the Estonian organizations in Toronto and elsewhere. I believe you will find that the leaders are all members of our academic organizations.
We carry on proud traditions.
Maxim, if all you got out of it was drinking, then you, sadly, missed the point. (again!)
Daniel Schaer, Rotalus20 Mar 2007 10:45
I don't have a problem if a commenter has a different opinion or a different view, but when they begin to attack people and their choices (especially anonymously), the academic, civil debate that should take place becomes the equivalent of Delfi commentary.
Back to the topic, participating in the organised academic life offered by fraternities has greatly contributed to who I am today. Being a member of a fraternity gave me the opportunity to practice my Estonian by providing instant connections to my brothers in Vancouver, Seattle, New York not to mention Estonia. My best friends are all members of my fraternity. We sing together in a choir, we have our own band, we play bridge and most of all we love discussing politics, Estonian/European affairs and other topics. Now that we are reaching the a point were we can also participate in forming and developing society, we are organising conferences, composing books, attending memorial events (Tief re-burial, Pitka monument) and invite intellectuals to give lectures at our meetings.
I am not going to deny that there is no partying. But I would rather have young men learning these social skills with respected members of society, then in parks and shopping malls. Also, forced drinking of alcohol does not exist in my fraternity. We have some members who are “täis karsklased”.
Having grown up attending “korpide jõulupuud ja suvepäevad” with most of Toronto friends having links to fraternities/sororities and now being an active alumnus, I can only recommend that all young Estonians at least give fraternities a try.
Vironus20 Mar 2007 11:18
It's unfortunate that an article about the anniversary of a fraternity turns into a critique of fraternal organizations in general.

Congrats C!F!E! on your anniversary and welcome to the 100 club.
Amica20 Mar 2007 14:10
Täitsa õigus vend Vironus!
Vivat, crescat, floriat C!F!E! in aeternum!
Anonymous20 Mar 2007 13:35
What you say about sororities may be accurate. But with respect to frats, you should know that men are crude in the absence of women and in the presence of alcohol, and the proud traditions that you refer to, upon inspection, look more like ceremonies and posturing.
My experience in the Estonian community is enriched by volunteer work with our youth, choral singing, and the Church. I'm a frat member but more in name than spirit.
Frats are generally crying for members. That makes me wonder what on earth Maxim might have done to get expelled from Vironia. It must have been something intolerably obnoxious and sustained over time. He has let fly with some lulus on these pages. (My favourite was his suggestion that the Estonian Ministry of Education should move to St. Petersburg and I imagine that it was something like that got him stripped of his Vironia colours.) Maxim has been criticized viciously, here, but never disproportionately.
But Maxim isn't the only fool in the room. Every Estonian organization has at least one frustrated soul that is going to vent his anger on whoever happens to be vulnerable. That's life and we simply have to work around them.
Maxim.20 Mar 2007 13:59
My suggestion to move the Ministry of Education comes partly on the heels of its constantly shifting house between Tallinn and Tartu, and inbetween periods not the slightest degree of improvement to the quality of our current education. Yet whilst we were part of a bigger tzarist motherland, our standard of education began to literally rocket upwards, that has since seen a proportionate downsliding over the past 15 years. St.Petersburg is the cradle of Estonian culture, and unfortunately our lack of respect for the tens of thousands of intellectuals that lived there and fought to improve our lot is totally overlooked by the likes of enemies of the state such as Anonymous.
to Maxim20 Mar 2007 14:20
Estonia hasn't been a part of the greater tsarist motherland since 1918.
Maxim.20 Mar 2007 15:29
Gee, what a real brainspan you proved to be! As if we didn't know, brother. However, since you've only just woken to this fact, perhaps it might be wise for you to take the next major step and discover just why Estonian education is in such a hopeless quagmire under the leadership of Mailis Reps, and also why Ilmar Raag's film "Klass" is making sensational headway at present in Estonian cinemas.
to maxim20 Mar 2007 16:36
"St.Petersburg is the cradle of Estonian culture"... This is hogwash.
Yes, some nationalistic Estonians did move to St. Petersburg when the tsar started his russifation policy in the late 19th century, but the CRADLE of Estonian culture comes from the South: Pärnu, Viljandi, Võru Tartu !
.20 Mar 2007 16:41
What are you barking about, Maxim?

You state, "whilst we were part of a bigger tzarist motherland, our standard of education began to literally rocket upwards, that has since seen a proportionate downsliding over the past 15 years."

.
Maxim.20 Mar 2007 23:32
The fact that Estonian culture was bolstered from having its epicentre in St. Petersburg did, as many academics would agree, simply stop our cultural roots from committing "cultural incest". There is too much infighting and general cowpod- style talupoja elements in Estonian culture, but one who has literally risen above this level and given Estonian culture a worthy place is this year's most acclaimed author, Mats Traat, whose latest novel Isad ja Pojad I can hardly praise enough!!!
is that a fact?21 Mar 2007 06:27
So, Maxim, "tens of thousands" of Estonian intellectuals lived in St. Petersburg. Can you name three?
Maxim forgot something...21 Mar 2007 06:52
Previously, you recommended that we read Veispak and Aronovich. Later, it appeared that you hadn't read them yourself. Now, it's Traat.

Over time, you have given us a lot of evidence that you are a confused semi-literate, with a grudge, who likes to strike intellectual poses. I don't believe that you are capable of reading Estonian beyond a very rudimentary level. Your English is better, but still at the level of a high-school drop-out.

But it's not too late Maxim. You can learn to read just like anyone else -- by doing it. Start with something simple and work your way up. Don't forget to buy a dictionary.
Laughing at you . . .21 Mar 2007 07:58
Given these latest comments, could we agree that the intellectual community did not immigrate to Toronto.

Why does the discussion ALWAYS seem to get hijacked by this crude, narrowminded and paranoid lynch-mob?

Read a book? You've not written anything here to suggest that there's anything going on in that hollow void of yours other than an obsession with attacking free thought and bullying anyone with a slightly left-of-center approach.

Are you capable of forming any original constructive ideas? Try it, maybe the community will stop laughing.
Maxim.21 Mar 2007 09:16
I don't consider this rent-a-crowd who come here attacking intellectual curiosity as anything more than a bunch of frat grogheads anyway, because underneath their criticizm of me lies one deadly serious fact; they want to protect the binge-drinking loonies and weak-minded spiritual ghosts from getting a little meat around their cerebral bones, because they fear that fraternities-heaven fordid-might, some day, actually come to perform the task for which they were originally designed. Not one of my ideas has been counteracted thoughtfully or with any sense that my critic is vaguely interested in the subject, yet they howl away as if they have all the answers, but are not prepared to produce any evidence to prove their reductionist theories. Let's take one of the greatest 19th century Estonian intellectuals living in St.Petersburg-Professor Martens. Now I'd like to see my opponents come up with a name that reaches this man's staggering heights!
to maxim21 Mar 2007 10:11
"Not one of my ideas has been counteracted thoughtfully or with any sense that my critic is vaguely interested ...."
right you are maxim, because not one of your ideas has been clearly phrased to allow for any answer ... your ideas are like dog piss on the living room carpet, but at least the dog learns not to do it again after his nose has been put in it ... when will you learn ?
Maximus21 Mar 2007 10:52
Once again an article has been hijacked by Maxim and his haters. I understand some peoples animosity towards Maxim and his comments but honestly, these school children insults are an embarrassment to everyone involved.

As for fraternities and sororities, they have been an integral part of many peoples lives both here in Toronto and in Estonia in the past 15 years. Yes, they are not for everyone but they provide a vital link to the Estonian community for people in their early 20's and onward who otherwise don't have many venues to participate in the community.
Laughing With You . . .21 Mar 2007 11:28
I for one appreciate Maxim's contribution to the discussion eg, the point about St. Petersburg in this string.

And I must agree, that I have yet to read a real challenge to his "outrageuos" facts -right or wrong- by anyone on this board.
If these truths, or errors are so offensive why don't you post your contradictory evidence, rather than slurs about 'dog urine' and 'beating' individuals.

As for the fraternities: not my bag but . . . live and let live. Although it is a bit strange that the active membership of these supposed 'student' organizations in Toronto is almost entirely made up of 50+ men and women. Forever young indeed . . . .
Maximus21 Mar 2007 11:37
[i]"these supposed 'student' organizations in Toronto is almost entirely made up of 50+ men and women." [i]

This is and isn't true, a number of the organizations that have grown older but this is a symptom of our overall community not just frats. A number of sororities and frats have seen immense growth the past 5 years and it's safe to say that there are a number of them that a made up by mostly young men and women who are proud members of the Estonian community.
2_Maxi21 Mar 2007 12:15
Here is a perfect example of your confused postings. When you write " 50+ ....." , are you thinking the age of the members being over 50 OR do yo mean there is a total membership of 50 plus members. Also, I would submit that Philadelphia , PA is "the cradle of Estonian culture ". I base my statement on your logic and the accomplishments and success of Louis Kahn . This architect was as much of an Estonian intellect as Professor Martens.
Anonymous21 Mar 2007 13:18
Louis Kahn was born in Kuresaare in 1901 as Itze-Leib Shmuilowski. He emigrated to the USA in 1905, changed his Estonian name to something that sounded a bit more Jewish, and became a famous architect who taught at Harvard.

We should all be very proud of our Estonian boy. This just proves Maxim's thesis that Estonian culture is from somewhere else.
M21 Mar 2007 13:40
Quite independent for a 4 year old that Kahn!
Where were his parents from - any idea about his ancestry?
Maxim.21 Mar 2007 14:00
I'll throw in another name for you-Michael Josselson of Tartu, who, albeit for the fact that he lived his life in the last century, was a very important and striking individual. He worked for the CIA and was largely responsible for the psychological rehabilitation of many important cultural icons who suffered at the hands of either the Nazis or the Bolsheviks, including the famous conductor Fürtwangler.
Maxima21 Mar 2007 19:20
Name three:

Hurt
Köhler
Wiidemann
Maxim.22 Mar 2007 06:43
Hurt is a St.Petersburg Estonian, just as much as you are a Toronto Estonian!
.21 Mar 2007 05:00
Why is it that there are two sides to every issue, plus Maxim's side -- the one that's either implausible, irrational or provocative?
Solid proof!21 Mar 2007 12:42
Maxim proves his case that St. Petersburg is the epicentre of Estonian culture with reference to Professor Martens. Thanks Maxim. Now we know.

Some of us probably overlooked this cornerstone of Estonian culture as they were distracted by Peterson, Jannsen, Kreutzwald, Koidula, Bornhöhe, Tammsaare et. al. So, let's jog our memories.

Professor Fjodor Fjodorovitš Martens (1845-1909) was a highly-regarded diplomat in the Russian Czar's court. His specialty was international law and arbitration among disputing states. Among others, he was a participant in the dispute between Britain and France over the status of Newfoundland.

He was of Estonian descent.

That's really swell, Maxim. From the tens of thousands of Estonians in St. Petersburg that constitute the epicentre of Estonian culture, can you give us another name or two?
Maxim.21 Mar 2007 14:52
Well enough time has passed since my little goofup in my reference to Mats Traat. Yes folks, for those of you who were astute enough to notice, I accidentally stated that the title of Traat's novel is Isad ja Pojad, when in fact it is Emad ja Pojad. However, it doesn't detract a single jot or tittle from the substance of the novel which is absolutely superb in every sense of the word.
to Maxim21 Mar 2007 15:01
Have you read it yet? If not, why not?
Maximile punkt21 Mar 2007 16:08
Kui postipoiss torkab Eesti Elu uksepilusse mul on see juba läbi loetud interneti vahendil ja Maximi naljadest närv ka juba must.
Nõnda, kui tellimust tuleb uuendada, mina sellest loobun.
Maxim.22 Mar 2007 00:47
Sulle õpetuseks-on vaid võimalik tühistada trükis ilmuvat lehte. Internet on selleks mõeldud et kõigile juurdepääs imeliste arvamustele-ka Sulle ja mulle. Kirjuta oma imelistest arvamustest nii et sattuksin täieliku vaimustusse nendest!! Muide, anonüümselt pole võimalik kellegil tühistada lehe tellimust-Sa ju peaksid seda juba teadma. Järelikult oled vaid järjekordne norija.
to Maxim22 Mar 2007 12:22
Yes Maxim, there were many Estonians in St. Petersburg during the Tsarist period and among them, Prof. Martens, a man of conspicuous accomplishment in the area of international law and Russian diplomacy. The question remains -- what was his contribution to Estonian culture? More generally, how have the St. Petersburg Estonians come to be the cradle of Estonian culture? You are unable to answer that question and deal with it by changing the topic when challenged.

You are an intellectual fraud, Maxim, and you come here with dishonest intentions. Your motivations, whatever they may be, must be powerful because you do this at a great cost to yourself -- every week, you come here and make a grotesque ass of yourself.
Maxim.22 Mar 2007 13:34
I ask but one question in response. That is; why is there such a wealth of published material about the 50,000 successful Estonians in St.Petersburg, and how did they come to achieve an aura of envy? The answer is simple. This period comes on the heels of Estonia's awakening after the 1860's, but due to so much infighting among Estonians themselves, it never really got the start it deserved. So many successful Estonians quietly left for St Petersburg (I'll take this opportunity to add Johan Köler's name to the ever-growing list that is developing here...) and as a consequence they became the apple of everyone's eye. After 1918, their acheivements came to be recognized by the Estonian Republic. Better late than never, I suppose.
Kalle22 Mar 2007 13:38
An you are just another individual who threw away a perfect opportunity to rebutt Maxim's interesting views of history. We know lots of people can put him down, but no-one seems to be able to respond successfully to what he writes. Where are all our Toronto intellectuals?
to Kalle = Maxim22 Mar 2007 14:17
You don't have any interesting views of history. You throw around a few vague and pejorative generalizations, refuse to provide any concrete detail, and change the topic when pressed.

Why? Who knows. Your emotional and intellectual development froze at age seventeen, just after your UFO period, when you moved into the excitement of conspiracy theories. Today, three decades later, you're still there, looking like a dunce who has acquired a serious grudge against humanity because no one will take you seriously.
Godfrey Willems22 Mar 2007 15:16
Hi Anonymous!
Still laughing at you . . .22 Mar 2007 20:34
The attacks are sounding less creative and more desperate.

Does Maxim have any decent weblinks to share about the St. Petersburg Estonians - other than the obvious wikipedia ones? His posts have encouraged further investigation -limited albeit to the web- by this reader. Thank you.
Eesti austaja.22 Mar 2007 15:37
Some of the coalition's politicians could do worse than pack their bags and head for St Petersburg. Toompea's looking more and more like a summer mirage.
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