Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
VanemadUuemad
A picture is worth a thousand words . THANKS .
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28Agreed. It speaks volumes about the 'artist'.
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13Groupthink is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an irrational or dysfunctional decision-making outcome. Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative viewpoints by actively suppressing dissenting viewpoints, and by isolating themselves from outside influences.
Groupthink requires individuals to avoid raising controversial issues or alternative solutions, and there is loss of individual creativity, uniqueness and independent thinking. The dysfunctional group dynamics of the "ingroup" produces an "illusion of invulnerability" (an inflated certainty that the right decision has been made). Thus the "ingroup" significantly overrates its own abilities in decision-making and significantly underrates the abilities of its opponents (the "outgroup"). Furthermore, groupthink can produce dehumanizing actions against the "outgroup".
Groupthink requires individuals to avoid raising controversial issues or alternative solutions, and there is loss of individual creativity, uniqueness and independent thinking. The dysfunctional group dynamics of the "ingroup" produces an "illusion of invulnerability" (an inflated certainty that the right decision has been made). Thus the "ingroup" significantly overrates its own abilities in decision-making and significantly underrates the abilities of its opponents (the "outgroup"). Furthermore, groupthink can produce dehumanizing actions against the "outgroup".
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9Really Jaak?
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16The man should look more decrepit. He should also be a panhandler. He seems to be in pain The morphine provided by those organizations must not be helping anymore. Mercy kill.
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7Nii siis tänatakse neid kes on tuhandeid tunde vabatahtlikult pakkunud selleks, et meie ühiskonnale leida uus kodu - häbi. :(
Me olime ühiskond enne kui meil maja oli ja me oleme ühiskond edasi. Ega perekond sellepärast ei lagune, et ta kolib uude majja.
Me olime ühiskond enne kui meil maja oli ja me oleme ühiskond edasi. Ega perekond sellepärast ei lagune, et ta kolib uude majja.
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23Vabandust väga! Aga ühiskond laguneb küll, kui rahval juurdepääs majale on keeruline ja kehv. Parklaid ei ole küllaldaselt ja ega inimesed ei hakka üritustele tassima oma kraami (saali kaunistusi jne) metrooga. Need parklad mis on ääriveeri olemas TC ümber ei ole tühjad parklad mis ootavad uue Madisoni hoone rahvast -- need on juba täis teiste autosid. Kui need tulevased kõrghooned ehitatakse TC kõrvale, siis nõudlus parklatele aina kasvab.
Meie ühiskonnas on siiski kaks leeri: rahvas kes pani oma viimased sendid Eesti Majja ja siis TC, mille teostas auväärt Elmar Tampõld. Üks on rahva poolt ehitatud maast madalast, teine on hoone pakutud rahvale. Efektiivsem ühiskonna hoone on see mille loomisel on rahva vajadustega arvestatud. Esitatud Kongatsi maja kujundus, nii pisikene kui see ka ei olnud, oli ilmselt maksimaalne variant. Öeldi koosolekul, et lõunapoolse seina koht ei ole veel paika pandud linnaga. Anti mõista, et uue hoone pindala võib isegi väiksem tulla, oleneb linna otsusest.
Meie ühiskonnas on siiski kaks leeri: rahvas kes pani oma viimased sendid Eesti Majja ja siis TC, mille teostas auväärt Elmar Tampõld. Üks on rahva poolt ehitatud maast madalast, teine on hoone pakutud rahvale. Efektiivsem ühiskonna hoone on see mille loomisel on rahva vajadustega arvestatud. Esitatud Kongatsi maja kujundus, nii pisikene kui see ka ei olnud, oli ilmselt maksimaalne variant. Öeldi koosolekul, et lõunapoolse seina koht ei ole veel paika pandud linnaga. Anti mõista, et uue hoone pindala võib isegi väiksem tulla, oleneb linna otsusest.
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11This cartoon is a very low blow. Embarrassing.
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21I thought that the guidelines for posting items indicated that nothing obscene should be posted, nor that individuals were not to be maligned. I think that the editors of this site had to have been asleep at the switch to have posted this . Incredible, to promote disharmony in a manner such as this! Häbi!
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17I see nothing wrong with the cartoon. This is freedom of speech, the artist is expressing an opinion.
If someone wrote with words that they “felt as if EH got stabbed in the back by these four organizations” then I don’t think you would say it is a low blow, would you? It is far from being obscene, no one is being maligned. Hopefully you would respect the person’s opinion. It shows us how powerful images can be. Regardless, freedom of speech should not be stifled. If the image had expressed displeasure with those holding another or an opposing opinion, I would say the same.
If someone wrote with words that they “felt as if EH got stabbed in the back by these four organizations” then I don’t think you would say it is a low blow, would you? It is far from being obscene, no one is being maligned. Hopefully you would respect the person’s opinion. It shows us how powerful images can be. Regardless, freedom of speech should not be stifled. If the image had expressed displeasure with those holding another or an opposing opinion, I would say the same.
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16The knives are clearly labelled with the names of 4 organizations. All of those are headed up by volunteers in our community. The cartoon is disparaging those volunteers. Why not admit this? Is it a small wonder that there is a shortage of volunteers? If you had read the Letters Patent at the Town Hall, it would have been apparent that EH's mandate is to own a building to be made available to the Estonian community. No where does it say "958 Broadview". That mandate can be held be real estate held elsewhere in the city.
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11Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: More than astonished! (16:48)
Without free speech, we have no community.
In this present situation we are in, it is a battle of wills. The present group of organizations leading the Madison charge, wonderful volunteers, are hell-bent on having the EH at the TC location, regardless of the present beautiful Kongats creation only being a fraction of what was originally envisioned (I believe 12 floors). Why are only two measly floors now good enough? Why is the community now purportedly shrinking and only worth a crammed existence, but this was not the case when the vision was 12 floors? The group would not have spent money on creating a mock-up of a 12-floor option if they didn't think it was achievable. Admit it, it is not what is best for the community that is driving this final design, but outside forces that are hemming us in. To use an analogy, let’s not pick a pair of shoes that will pinch our feet for a long time to come.
Consolidation is fine, if it works, but it doesn’t work if you are building a house on stilts at a very, very, very high cost to the community. You will lose people (think of commuter issues, parking issues, etc.). You will not lose people if you rebuild a shiny brand new house with six floors and a funky retro façade at 958 Broadview.
The real issue is money, money, money. I bet my bottom dollar that if we get the money issue sorted out, we can build the house of our dreams. Fact: our scrimping and saving parents put many of us through school to become successful doctors, lawyers, engineers and a whole array of wonderful professions. They also scraped money together to build at 958 Broadview. Let’s be honest. I suspect that several of us, myself included, can pledge and scrimp together $10,000. It may be an existence of only buying socks, underwear and modest meals at home for an extended period of time, but I would be willing to do it for Our House. Wouldn’t you?
Now picture this scenario: we had the large hall of the EH filled on Wednesday, roughly 400 people. Now let’s just say, for arguments sake, that 400 people with a decent income scraped and saved for a year or two and pledged $10,000 each to Our House, that would come to $4 million. Our community is bigger than 400 people. Our community is also peopled with individuals of means for whom $10,000 is not a challenge. There may even be people in our community for whom $50,000 would be doable; naming rights for halls and special features $100,000, $200,000 can be considered.
The challenge is: we can’t build the house of our dreams at Madison. Let’s stop trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Let’s not leave members of our community out in the cold. Bless the hearts of our volunteer board members in charge of the future our community centre, but let’s build something that we can all get behind.
In this present situation we are in, it is a battle of wills. The present group of organizations leading the Madison charge, wonderful volunteers, are hell-bent on having the EH at the TC location, regardless of the present beautiful Kongats creation only being a fraction of what was originally envisioned (I believe 12 floors). Why are only two measly floors now good enough? Why is the community now purportedly shrinking and only worth a crammed existence, but this was not the case when the vision was 12 floors? The group would not have spent money on creating a mock-up of a 12-floor option if they didn't think it was achievable. Admit it, it is not what is best for the community that is driving this final design, but outside forces that are hemming us in. To use an analogy, let’s not pick a pair of shoes that will pinch our feet for a long time to come.
Consolidation is fine, if it works, but it doesn’t work if you are building a house on stilts at a very, very, very high cost to the community. You will lose people (think of commuter issues, parking issues, etc.). You will not lose people if you rebuild a shiny brand new house with six floors and a funky retro façade at 958 Broadview.
The real issue is money, money, money. I bet my bottom dollar that if we get the money issue sorted out, we can build the house of our dreams. Fact: our scrimping and saving parents put many of us through school to become successful doctors, lawyers, engineers and a whole array of wonderful professions. They also scraped money together to build at 958 Broadview. Let’s be honest. I suspect that several of us, myself included, can pledge and scrimp together $10,000. It may be an existence of only buying socks, underwear and modest meals at home for an extended period of time, but I would be willing to do it for Our House. Wouldn’t you?
Now picture this scenario: we had the large hall of the EH filled on Wednesday, roughly 400 people. Now let’s just say, for arguments sake, that 400 people with a decent income scraped and saved for a year or two and pledged $10,000 each to Our House, that would come to $4 million. Our community is bigger than 400 people. Our community is also peopled with individuals of means for whom $10,000 is not a challenge. There may even be people in our community for whom $50,000 would be doable; naming rights for halls and special features $100,000, $200,000 can be considered.
The challenge is: we can’t build the house of our dreams at Madison. Let’s stop trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Let’s not leave members of our community out in the cold. Bless the hearts of our volunteer board members in charge of the future our community centre, but let’s build something that we can all get behind.
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7The 12 story version envisioned condos. It was not 12 stories of floor space for EM use.
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0Thanks for clearing that up. My other points still stand. Any thoughts?
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1Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Let's make a smart decision (07:05)
I may not agree with Jaak on his cartoon, but I sure as hell support his right to say so!
We have seen/witnessed the same issues with the Latvians and their switch over from from their facility to the Latvian Centre on Credit Union Drive. Personally I believe they made the correct decision. Now we need to make or own.
Why must WE fight among ourselves because our opinions are different from lifelong friends? No one likes change, but if the house is falling down on our shoulders while we are inside, are we THAT blind that we can't save ourselves and family from the home collapsing down upon us?
Renovations and upgrades have been needed on Toronto Eesti Maja from the day it was purchased. No-one seems to deny this. Now those renovations and upgrades ALSO need to to be renovated and upgraded.
Parking in Toronto is horrible at the best of times and NOW it is one of the main deciding factors on one location versus another??? Give me a break!
Our parents, grandparents HAD to leave Eesti. No ifs and or buts!
NOW we are concerned with PARKING???
Are we even listening to ourselves?
But then I'm a transplant, and not a "true Toronto Estonian" as many have pointed out to me. So my opinion doesn't carry any weight.
We have seen/witnessed the same issues with the Latvians and their switch over from from their facility to the Latvian Centre on Credit Union Drive. Personally I believe they made the correct decision. Now we need to make or own.
Why must WE fight among ourselves because our opinions are different from lifelong friends? No one likes change, but if the house is falling down on our shoulders while we are inside, are we THAT blind that we can't save ourselves and family from the home collapsing down upon us?
Renovations and upgrades have been needed on Toronto Eesti Maja from the day it was purchased. No-one seems to deny this. Now those renovations and upgrades ALSO need to to be renovated and upgraded.
Parking in Toronto is horrible at the best of times and NOW it is one of the main deciding factors on one location versus another??? Give me a break!
Our parents, grandparents HAD to leave Eesti. No ifs and or buts!
NOW we are concerned with PARKING???
Are we even listening to ourselves?
But then I'm a transplant, and not a "true Toronto Estonian" as many have pointed out to me. So my opinion doesn't carry any weight.
7
5K 5. aprill - TORONTO EESTI ÜHISPANGA AASTAPEAKOOSOLEK Eesti Majas
N 6. aprill - LÕBUS KEVADPÜHADE PÄRASTLÕUNA Eesti Majas.
L 8. aprill - Toronto Eesti Seltsi Lasteaia MOENÄITUS Eesti Majas
L 22. aprill - ESTONIA KOORI KONTSERT „Teeme õhtulla iluda" Eesti Majas
P 23. aprill - Toronto Eesti Koolikoori KONTSERT „TALLINNA TEEL" Eesti Majas.
L 29. apr. - HIIGELBASAAR ja KOHVIK #26 AKEN'i korraldusel Toronto Eesti Majas
K 5. aprill - LOENG Tartu College'is: KALEV RUBERG „Artificial Intelligence: Utopia, Dystopia, Reality"
P 30. apr. - VEMU TULUÕHTU Tartu College'is
N 6. aprill - LÕBUS KEVADPÜHADE PÄRASTLÕUNA Eesti Majas.
L 8. aprill - Toronto Eesti Seltsi Lasteaia MOENÄITUS Eesti Majas
L 22. aprill - ESTONIA KOORI KONTSERT „Teeme õhtulla iluda" Eesti Majas
P 23. aprill - Toronto Eesti Koolikoori KONTSERT „TALLINNA TEEL" Eesti Majas.
L 29. apr. - HIIGELBASAAR ja KOHVIK #26 AKEN'i korraldusel Toronto Eesti Majas
K 5. aprill - LOENG Tartu College'is: KALEV RUBERG „Artificial Intelligence: Utopia, Dystopia, Reality"
P 30. apr. - VEMU TULUÕHTU Tartu College'is
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2Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Dysfunctional decision-making (18:38)
to "one more picture"
aka "Veel üks pilt"
not exactly sure, but what does your post have to do with the previous ones?
aka "Veel üks pilt"
not exactly sure, but what does your post have to do with the previous ones?
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6Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Karl Otsa (15:19)
"You will not lose people if you rebuild a shiny brand new house with six floors and a funky retro façade at 958 Broadview....
...I bet my bottom dollar that if we get the money issue sorted out, we can build the house of our dreams."
I don't disagree with your sentiment and I'm not crazy about the new proposal, but I believe the last several years WERE spent on trying to find a solution at 958 Broadview. Oddly the people criticizing the EM board loudest about money spent on consultants & developers for plans to stay put at 958 are the same people who now criticize any plans to relocate.
When asked during the Q&A how much he thought it might cost to do a re-build at 958 hypothetically- I believe the rough figure Alar offered was $18 M. So if 1000 Estonians agree on a single vision and give $20k each....
Don't forget that building a useful, self-sustaining, cost-efficient space around the Chester Public School heritage site could also be considered a square peg in a round hole.
...I bet my bottom dollar that if we get the money issue sorted out, we can build the house of our dreams."
I don't disagree with your sentiment and I'm not crazy about the new proposal, but I believe the last several years WERE spent on trying to find a solution at 958 Broadview. Oddly the people criticizing the EM board loudest about money spent on consultants & developers for plans to stay put at 958 are the same people who now criticize any plans to relocate.
When asked during the Q&A how much he thought it might cost to do a re-build at 958 hypothetically- I believe the rough figure Alar offered was $18 M. So if 1000 Estonians agree on a single vision and give $20k each....
Don't forget that building a useful, self-sustaining, cost-efficient space around the Chester Public School heritage site could also be considered a square peg in a round hole.
0
6You make good points.
I think people were hopeful that the four organization group would come up with a good plan for Madison, but the cards were stacked against them by the organized groups in the Madison area and with the limited space they had to build on (footprint and height) permitted by the city.
The four group board should step back and say, hey, this is not working – that the city and special interest groups have limited us too, too much and it is not good business sense to continue on Madison. After the townhall meeting last Wednesday, my read of the mood in the community is that they would rather keep the present house and either fix it up or semi-rebuild it while keeping heritage elements (by the way, Kongats’ 18 M estimation was for an entirely new building, there are cheaper ways to do it). It can be done tastefully, creatively, and it can be an architectural marvel.
MY SINCERE FEAR IS THAT THIS FOURSOME GROUP OF ORGANIZATIONS IN THEIR RUSH WILL SELL THE ESTONIAN HOUSE FOR A SONG. This will come back to haunt us and we will ask, how could they have done this to our community? A developer will buy the 958 Broadview property cheap and will build a swank building with a beautiful view to the ravine in its place. They will be laughing at our narrow-mindedness.
Let us be the ones to build that building at 958 Broadview with creativity!
I think people were hopeful that the four organization group would come up with a good plan for Madison, but the cards were stacked against them by the organized groups in the Madison area and with the limited space they had to build on (footprint and height) permitted by the city.
The four group board should step back and say, hey, this is not working – that the city and special interest groups have limited us too, too much and it is not good business sense to continue on Madison. After the townhall meeting last Wednesday, my read of the mood in the community is that they would rather keep the present house and either fix it up or semi-rebuild it while keeping heritage elements (by the way, Kongats’ 18 M estimation was for an entirely new building, there are cheaper ways to do it). It can be done tastefully, creatively, and it can be an architectural marvel.
MY SINCERE FEAR IS THAT THIS FOURSOME GROUP OF ORGANIZATIONS IN THEIR RUSH WILL SELL THE ESTONIAN HOUSE FOR A SONG. This will come back to haunt us and we will ask, how could they have done this to our community? A developer will buy the 958 Broadview property cheap and will build a swank building with a beautiful view to the ravine in its place. They will be laughing at our narrow-mindedness.
Let us be the ones to build that building at 958 Broadview with creativity!
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2I agree that a solution at 958 is ideal and that we mustn't rush into a deal that doesn't fit. I'll likely vote against the Madison plan.
However I have yet to see any realistic, organized proposals & plans from "the community."
Is there a workable counter-proposal?
I would advise getting our sitt together rather than railing against the successful organizations that do (ETCU, ESK & TC) a la Eestlase lemmiktoit.
However I have yet to see any realistic, organized proposals & plans from "the community."
Is there a workable counter-proposal?
I would advise getting our sitt together rather than railing against the successful organizations that do (ETCU, ESK & TC) a la Eestlase lemmiktoit.
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1Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Dreams (08:21)
I absolutely LOVE this picture!!!
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13Is this Jaak Järve the same one who organizes community Golf Tournaments, Chess Club matches, Artist Society exhibitions and various other community events, most of which benefit from generous financial support provided by these same community organizations?
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1Kommentaarid sellele artiklile on suletud.
