Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
VanemadUuemad
Thank you Linda! Good article
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6Linda Veltman, Veiko Parming, among others, give me confidence in the future of our community.
They are a sharp contrast to the destructive impulses of Allan Meiusi and the rest of the "Revenge for Rosie" gang that tried to destroy Ehatare.
They are a sharp contrast to the destructive impulses of Allan Meiusi and the rest of the "Revenge for Rosie" gang that tried to destroy Ehatare.
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18Thank you Linda, I hear what you are saying.
You use a very good analogy with Estonia (“When Estonia regained its independence it didn’t try to go back and recreate the golden years before occupation – it picked itself up, brushed off the dirt, and bolted past many countries.”).
To go further with your analogy, Estonia combined the old with the new in a vibrant “Vanalinn” or Old City in Tallinn. It can be done. It’s not a pile of crappy buildings in Vanalinn, it’s modern and hip with old buildings. What about doing this for 958 Broadview? We could do a scaled down version of the following in stages (including getting rid of the newest section Laikvee built in front of the old school’s facade): http://urbantoronto.ca/news/20...
Your take in your article is as if we have to live in the same crappy building and you don’t seem to entertain the idea of the cool, retro building the old digs could become. You don’t have to move out of your “parent’s house”, you can make it your own with your own modern vision.
I have the same concerns as Madis Kreem who wrote in a comment in another article that we will likely run out of chutzpa, money and steam by the end of phase one. Can you imagine what a travesty that would be for the community? We will have shortened our own community’s life.
Why not rebuild a cool building on the old property in stages? We would not be alienating seniors, commuters and people needing convenient parking (due to health issues, etc.) as we are with the Madison project.
You use a very good analogy with Estonia (“When Estonia regained its independence it didn’t try to go back and recreate the golden years before occupation – it picked itself up, brushed off the dirt, and bolted past many countries.”).
To go further with your analogy, Estonia combined the old with the new in a vibrant “Vanalinn” or Old City in Tallinn. It can be done. It’s not a pile of crappy buildings in Vanalinn, it’s modern and hip with old buildings. What about doing this for 958 Broadview? We could do a scaled down version of the following in stages (including getting rid of the newest section Laikvee built in front of the old school’s facade): http://urbantoronto.ca/news/20...
Your take in your article is as if we have to live in the same crappy building and you don’t seem to entertain the idea of the cool, retro building the old digs could become. You don’t have to move out of your “parent’s house”, you can make it your own with your own modern vision.
I have the same concerns as Madis Kreem who wrote in a comment in another article that we will likely run out of chutzpa, money and steam by the end of phase one. Can you imagine what a travesty that would be for the community? We will have shortened our own community’s life.
Why not rebuild a cool building on the old property in stages? We would not be alienating seniors, commuters and people needing convenient parking (due to health issues, etc.) as we are with the Madison project.
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11I also have nostalgic feelings for the Broadview location and the building that is there now. With the exception of the few years that I lived in Eesti I have been going to the Eesti Maja once or twice a week pretty much my entire life - 9 months of the year. Ideally I would love to see something at Broadview like what was done with that schoolhouse. It would be super cool.
However.... I don't think this is a realistic possibility anymore.
All of the plans that we have seen thus far have utilized the value of the Broadview property in some way which would have given us huge seed capital for either a new development when partnered with someone onsite, or for a new project such as the Madison project.
With the exception of one commentator who came up with the simple idea of asking 1000 Estonians to donate $20,000 each, noone that I am aware of has given any sort of funding ideas at all for a rebuild at Broadview - and that is where the rebuild plan in my eyes fails.
It would take an enormous amount of money to convert Broadview from a class C building in to a class A - which is what we need to be, to be self sustaining. Redoing the 'guts' is not enough, and that comes at a minimum estimated cost of $1.5 million and that is before dealing with any surprises that are found inside the walls when demolition begins. The amount to repair the infrastructure alone is likely to be closer to double this - and that is keeping the same layout and without any major cosmetic changes.
The type of renovation that needs to be done at Broadview is literally demolishing the entire building (while leaving the heritage school building exterior walls up) and rebuilding from scratch. The amount of money needed to do this will rival the budget of the Madison project, but without the huge seed capital that selling gives us.
Again, ideally for me, this is what we would do - but I cannot think of any way that we could possibly pay for this.
Therefore, after going to the townhall, and also attending the Q&A session that was held on a Tuesday night at the kohvik, and after asking questions myself, and reading as much as I could about the entire project, and talking to people - I support the Madison avenue plan.
The new Eesti Maja will not be perfect, and will not meet every single one of our communities needs. For example, the gun club sadly will be left behind and as a skaut I will miss this.
Also, the parking will be a little more inconvenient and the commute for me coming from Mississauga will be maybe a few minutes longer - but all of these are not deal breakers for me. Eestlus is far too important to me and I will adjust to these changes.
Madison is not perfect - but it is a solution that will meet the vast majority of our communities needs.
At the end of the day - the group of 4 organizations have brought forward a plan that will work, and they have a plan on how to fund this new building (or at least cover the lions share of the costs). As many have said, the boards of these organizations are full of volunteers who care about Eestlus in Toronto and in Canada and have our best interests at heart. I trust them, and I give them my support.
How can I help?
However.... I don't think this is a realistic possibility anymore.
All of the plans that we have seen thus far have utilized the value of the Broadview property in some way which would have given us huge seed capital for either a new development when partnered with someone onsite, or for a new project such as the Madison project.
With the exception of one commentator who came up with the simple idea of asking 1000 Estonians to donate $20,000 each, noone that I am aware of has given any sort of funding ideas at all for a rebuild at Broadview - and that is where the rebuild plan in my eyes fails.
It would take an enormous amount of money to convert Broadview from a class C building in to a class A - which is what we need to be, to be self sustaining. Redoing the 'guts' is not enough, and that comes at a minimum estimated cost of $1.5 million and that is before dealing with any surprises that are found inside the walls when demolition begins. The amount to repair the infrastructure alone is likely to be closer to double this - and that is keeping the same layout and without any major cosmetic changes.
The type of renovation that needs to be done at Broadview is literally demolishing the entire building (while leaving the heritage school building exterior walls up) and rebuilding from scratch. The amount of money needed to do this will rival the budget of the Madison project, but without the huge seed capital that selling gives us.
Again, ideally for me, this is what we would do - but I cannot think of any way that we could possibly pay for this.
Therefore, after going to the townhall, and also attending the Q&A session that was held on a Tuesday night at the kohvik, and after asking questions myself, and reading as much as I could about the entire project, and talking to people - I support the Madison avenue plan.
The new Eesti Maja will not be perfect, and will not meet every single one of our communities needs. For example, the gun club sadly will be left behind and as a skaut I will miss this.
Also, the parking will be a little more inconvenient and the commute for me coming from Mississauga will be maybe a few minutes longer - but all of these are not deal breakers for me. Eestlus is far too important to me and I will adjust to these changes.
Madison is not perfect - but it is a solution that will meet the vast majority of our communities needs.
At the end of the day - the group of 4 organizations have brought forward a plan that will work, and they have a plan on how to fund this new building (or at least cover the lions share of the costs). As many have said, the boards of these organizations are full of volunteers who care about Eestlus in Toronto and in Canada and have our best interests at heart. I trust them, and I give them my support.
How can I help?
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9Madison location has only one thing going for it - it is next to TC. Otherwise there is no exclusive parking, hard to get to by car, roudy bar with drunks across the road, shadow most of the time, subway underneath, active ratepayers association, zoning restrictions, etc. The new center will not be supported by TC like frat rooms in the basement, it has to support itself.
Can't we get more house somewhere else for 18 miljon? All the plans have relied on unlocking the land value at Broadview (and I agree with it), do we really have to put this value into 2 stories on stilts with all the negatives that come with it?
Can't we get more house somewhere else for 18 miljon? All the plans have relied on unlocking the land value at Broadview (and I agree with it), do we really have to put this value into 2 stories on stilts with all the negatives that come with it?
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14with what money shall we build this dream?
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0The Madison plan is causing strong (emotional) reactions because the way it was conceived and presented. It was conceived in secrecy. It was presented pretty much as fait accompli. Madison group showed some shiny preliminary sketches and basically said "we don't have any details, but trust us, we know what's best".
Another element is the "we have to take the deal now, it will not be available tomorrow" type tactic.
It rubs people the wrong way.
Another element is the "we have to take the deal now, it will not be available tomorrow" type tactic.
It rubs people the wrong way.
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16In this case, I do think there is a timer ticking on the parking lot. If we do not move on this property we could very much lose it and then we are back at square one.
Sure, it would be great if we could talk all this out and come to a 100% consensus about how we will be moving forward, but at some point we need to make some firm decisions and move forward - and the majority of people I have talked to seem to be on board with this direction.
Sure, it would be great if we could talk all this out and come to a 100% consensus about how we will be moving forward, but at some point we need to make some firm decisions and move forward - and the majority of people I have talked to seem to be on board with this direction.
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7Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: David Hogg (12:18)
I encourage everyone who is dreaming about a cool new modern building to look at what happened to the Toronto Greek Community. Here is a good article from the Globe and Mail: http://www.theglobeandmail.com...
In short, the Greeks started building a cool new community house, but ran out of money. It sat for years partially built in Scarborough, near Warden and Ellesmere. Eventually the Jain community bought it, but it is still not completed.
What is notable, that the Hellenic Centre was built on cheaper land, and did not need special engineering since it is not over a subway. It is a much simpler box design than what is proposed for EM2. So the Greeks were far more modest in their 'cool new house' plans than the current EM board is, and they still failed.
I am sure they had good intentions, but it was very risky and they lost everything.
This could be us too.
In short, the Greeks started building a cool new community house, but ran out of money. It sat for years partially built in Scarborough, near Warden and Ellesmere. Eventually the Jain community bought it, but it is still not completed.
What is notable, that the Hellenic Centre was built on cheaper land, and did not need special engineering since it is not over a subway. It is a much simpler box design than what is proposed for EM2. So the Greeks were far more modest in their 'cool new house' plans than the current EM board is, and they still failed.
I am sure they had good intentions, but it was very risky and they lost everything.
This could be us too.
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3Thank you, Linda, for your commentary. Especially the insight into financial matters. You have no doubt spent many more hours at the property than those that have authored other articles on this subject. I too have a soft spot for the building. However, the harsh reality must be accepted that the place is virtually on life support. Let's all work together on a move to a new home. One that is financially viable and sustainable. Madison males considerable sense from a financial perspective.
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8"Best business practices" dictate you provide context for your views. In your lengthy commentaries neither you nor Veiko Parming have addressed the quality of management of Eesti Maja, which may have caused the dismal financial picture you paint. Ask business investor Mihkel Liik - the aptitude of the actual people in charge can deliver completely different results. cf Űlle Veltmann's ability to generate meaningful profits from the kohvik et. al. which not everyone could do. So, was there any management of Eesti Maja over the period you cover? Who was responsible? Marketing budgets? Dollars spent on promotion of the venue? Event specialist assignments? What events occurred? Profitable/Unprofitable? Do you propose to continue to employ the same structure/boards/people accountable for the activity level or lack thereof/lack of profitability in your new location?
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6Kommentaarid sellele artiklile on suletud.
